Here is an excerpt from from a recent Indrayumna Swami lecture given in Russia where he addresses–the Ritviks, as full of demoniac lies and twists.
We , have attempted below to answer his questions and statements within his lecture
damaghosa das
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Indrayumna—WHAT IS THE ṚTVIK PEOPLE?
Another strong attack on ISKCON is the ṛtvik people. How many of you know what is the ṛtvik movement? Just a few of you. Okay,
damaghosa-Only a few of his followers say they know of the ritvik movement–if thats true,our work has a long way to go or maybe they just lied to their guru to cover themselves.
Indrayumna–but we could speak for hours about that. But basically, the ṛtvik people,
damaghosa-If most of them have not heard of us, then why does he call it a “strong attack” on iskcon?
Indrayumna-The ṛtvik people say that, “Śrīla Prabhupāda is meant to be the only initiating guru in ISKCON for the next 10,000 years.”
damaghosa–No we dont say that at all. We only say that Srila Prabhupada has and had a system already in place before he left his body. That HE called ritvik–not us.
Indrayumna–There’s too angles of vision of ṛtviks, either Prabhupāda is meant to be initiating guru forever, or until another self-effulgent, self-realized pure devotee appears in ISKCON.
damaghosa–No we dont say this either-we dont say ” forever” or until another self effulgent acarya comes along-more fabrications by him and iskcon
Indrayumna– Then that person can also accept disciples. And the way that they substantiate this is, number one, by showing the falldown of a number of ISKCON gurus.
damaghosa–This is yet another concotion by iskcon. Their numerous fall downs is not due to the ritvik system but because of their disobedience to Srila Prabhpadas wishes for the continuation of his iskcon. That is where most of the problems began.
Using their falldowns is a negative way to disprove the ritvik system. The system Srila Prabhupada chose was due to his orders and explanations of who can be guru-one can become guru if one is qualified (which none of them are) and most importantly is they are authorized, which they were not. You cannot find one tiny bit of evidence to prove Prabhupada ever said he wanted everyone to become initiating gurus-never. What he did say was that his disciples were to become siksa gurus, and not diksa gurus.
Indrayumna–This means that philosophy is cracked because so many leading gurus have fallen down, they were not qualified. And the others will fall very soon.
damaghosa–This is unclear what he means here. First of all he is offensive to his own guru Srila Prabhuapada just for saying the ritvik system is cracked-like only a cracked headed madman would even suggest such a system. Prabhupada himself said if one initiates without authorization his falldown is guaranteed-and that is what we have seen over the past 40 years or so.
What is evident is that he at least admits so many iskcon gurus have fallen down-not a very good track record at all for those who are supposed to lead one from birth and death would you say?
All he is doing by this foolish statement is admitting that iskcons system for appointing gurus has failed.
Indrayumna— And, number two, from the history surrounding Prabhupāda’s departure. Prabhupāda, before he passed away, he said that he will assign eleven of his disciples who were the ṛtvik, or officiating ācāryas, to initiate on his behalf.
damaghosa–Right- those 11 were deputed to initiate on behalf of Srila Prabhupada. He has this correct But where iskcon went off track was that they say after Prabhupada leaves his body then they can become “regular ” spiritual masters-yet what they fail to understand is THAT order to become regular acarayas never came not were they qualified. If one believes this to be true then show us the proof. There was no order. All he said was ritvik, thats all.
And worse still for them TKG even admitted about 4 months before Prabhupadas departure that after studying all the Godbrothers-that none of them were qualified to become gurus, and Prabhupada agreed with his assessment.
Indrayumna–So, these are the two basic presentations of the ṛtvik people. I mean, it is quite involved, but these are the two basic presentations.
damaghosa–Well at least he admits its not just the july 9th letter which we present as the only “evidence” The evidence is all over the books-if one actually reads the books
Indrayumna— They have different tape recordings of Prabhupāda, and different things Prabhupāda said, etc. Let us discuss these two things a little bit, so when the ṛtviks come to Russia – and they will come to Russia – you won’t be bamboozled or bewildered by these arguments.
damaghosa–The “ritviks ” are already all over Russia and there are many of them who are not being fooled by the antics of bogus gurus in iskcon. Your bogus gurus days are numbered
Indrayumna–WILL ALL THE ISKCON GURUS FALL DOWN?
So first of all, the first argument is that many gurus have fallen.
damaghosa–The fact that iskcon gurus have fallen down is not the proof we use to establish the ritvik system. That is a separate issue. Because the sun is out today does not mean it cant be raining also. I dont know if some of you can follow this logic, but there it is. The sun is already out means Prabhupada is self effulgent as are his instructions but for those under the cloud of illusion-for them its only raining outside. They simply cannot see the Sun We dont use a negative to prove a positive.
Indrayumna–Well, many have not fallen (laughter). More have not fallen than have fallen. Those of us who are initiating, at least I can say for myself, we are not pure devotees of the Lord. I am not. I don’t see Kṛṣṇa in Vṛndāvana. I don’t cry tears of ecstasy when I chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. I’m not and will never be on the level of Śrīla Prabhupāda. But it does not mean that I’m gonna fall down.
damaghosa–No they all will fall down because that is what Srila Prabhupada himself says in many places and that their so called disciples will also fall with them to hellish life after this one. He says some of the iskcon gurus are not fallen, yet is not even ashamed of the pictures taken of him with so many young girls in bikinis at the beach of him fondling little girls on his lap. Has he not heard that so called sannyasis are never to have any intimate or closeup connection with women? He cannot even see how he is “already fallen” and his condition will be getting only worse.
Because there are no tears of ecstasy in his eyes when he chants is not the reason he is already fallen. He is fallen due to disobedience to his own guru and his instructions. When one disobeys his bona fide guru, means he has immediateley disconnected his link to him Therefore he is already fallen and the gross part of this falldown is yet to be publicly seen, apparently. Maybe it already has been seen but these people are expert at hiding these things even when so many know about it.
Indrayumna–That would defeat the whole philosophy that you can advance in Kṛṣṇa consciousness to the stage of pure devotion by following the process of Kṛṣṇa consciousness.
damaghosa–But their problem is they dont even know the standard path that should be taken by a bona fide disciple. Otherwise, they would not still have the glaring problem in iskcon of not knowing what is the philosophy of guru tattva-yet . So they set up their so called brahminical advisory committee to tell them. And these devotees admit they still dont have a definitive paper on Guru Tattva. And now women can be diksa gurus too-just get enough of their valueless no objections votes and your in. What a farce it has become.
Indrayumna–But I can repeat what my spiritual master has said, I can set a good example for my disciples, and by following my example and hearing what Prabhupāda has said from me, you can become Kṛṣṇa conscious.
damaghosa–Here we go again-“milk touched by the lips of a servant causes a poisonous effect”
If one cannot repeat verbatim what Prabhupada has said or written then he (SP) says it is better to not have accepted initiation for that is hypocrisy. Worse still is when one concocts what the bona fide guru has said and comes up with one lie after another. What to speak of setting a good example which he does not. It is common knowledge that he is around beautiful girls many times, especially in bikinis yet he thinks this is setting a good example? What a fool he is.
These are the kinds of bogus swamis Prabhupada was repeatedly warned us about in his books.
Indrayumna–There’s different types of pure devotees (chuckles). A disciple can see his spiritual master as a pure devotee in the sense that his spiritual master has fully dedicated his body, mind and words to the mission of Caitanya Mahāprabhu and Śrīla Prabhupāda.
damaghosa–No there is only one type of pure devotee-he is 100% PURE This fellow has not dedicated his mind or eyes to God when he is seen so many times with young and beautiful girls in bikinis.
No pure devotee or bona fide guru would ever do such a thing. One time Prabhupada was in his room with his sister Pisima, and with Buddhimanta das and this devotee got up to leave and Prabhupada told him to stay. Asked later as to why he had to stay he replied a sannyasi is never to be alone with a woman even if his sister or mother, what to speak of young girls.
Indrayumna– vaco vegam manasah krodha-vegam jihva-vegam udaropastha-vegam Basically, one who can control his senses, and one who is fully immersed in the missionary activities of Kṛṣṇa consciousness is qualified to make disciples all over the world. It doesn’t say that one has to be experienced in the eight ecstatic symptoms of love of God.
damaghosa–Actually the Maha bhagavat does have all 8 mystic siddhis at his command but usually does not show this material opulence This is just one of the minor qualifications of a pure devotee spiritual master. There are some powerful yogis that have these mystic opulences and yet-they are still not pure devotees.
Indrayumna-– One has to be of a certain stature in Kṛṣṇa consciousness to be an initiating guru, that I agree. But ṛtvik people say that unless one is, you know, completely self-realized devotee of the Lord who can see Kṛṣṇa in Vṛndāvana, that he shouldn’t initiate. But that is not our philosophy.
damaghosa–This is where they really dont understand the proper siddhanta of guru tattva. How can the bound up release the other bound up souls? If you have ropes tying you up how can you untie others? This is found in a BG purport.
In one place only in the book called Nectar of instruction Prabhupada does say that a neophyte or an intermediate disciple can accept disciples but it is understood these disciples cannot advance very far or especially to the ultimate goal of Bhakti. So it is best one takes initiation from an uttama adhikari. Which Indrayumna admits he is NOT.
And furthermore in his last instructions like july 9th for instance on this business of initiations, Prabhupada gave his final decree that he only authorized ritviks to give initiations in the future when no longer with us.
Indrayumna— Prabhupāda said, even one who is kaniṣṭha-adhikārī, he can accept disciples. And the fact that there’re gurus who have fallen down does not mean that the process is wrong, because even during Lord Caitanya’s time some gurus were falling down.
damaghosa–We are not concerned with devotees 500 years ago but only with what Srila Prabhupada told us to do. If one accepts diksa from a 3rd class bhakta and has available also for diksa the top most uttama adhikari Maha Bhagavat to give him diksa—then he is very very unfortunate.
But this unfortunate situation can be immediately changed by rejecting the 3rd class bhakta and accepting the uttama adhikari Maha Bhagavata-Srila Prabhupada
Indrayumna–The sannyāsīs are the natural spiritual masters of the society, and Chota Haridās, Junior Haridās, fell down. A personal associate of Lord Caitanya, Kṛṣṇadāsa Brahmacārī, he was the Lord’s assistant when He went to South India, he fell down! And Narahari Sarkara wrote a book, Kṛṣṇa Bhajanāmṛta, which explains what to do if your guru falls down.
damaghosa–If your guru falls down then his is not a very high grade of devotion because as Prabhupada explains an authorized maha Bhagavat pure devotee will never fall down even if he goes to preach.
Indrayumna–Which means that you pray like anything that he comes back and becomes properly situated, and can continue to guide you in Kṛṣṇa consciousness.
damaghosa–If your unauthorized bogus guru falls down, how can a very fallen devotee continue to guide you when he cant even guide himself?
Indrayumna–You wait for him to come back. If he doesn’t come back, that’s another lecture. But the point is that there were gurus who were falling down. But not every guru! (chuckles) Some. So in ISKCON some have fallen. Śrī Prahlāda dāsa: “In Gauḍīya Maṭh, too.” Indradyumna Swami: In Gauḍīya Maṭh so many gurus have fallen. In Rāmānujācārya’s sampradāya so many gurus have fallen. So one shouldn’t think, “Oh, my guru will also fall.” That’s offensive. If you lose your faith in guru, then you lose your faith in Kṛṣṇa.
damaghosa–If you find the bona fide and authorized spiritual master then where is the loss. When you lose faith from your personal experience, that is losing faith in something that could never help you realize the ultimate goal of life-Krsna Prema and Krsna would never reject such a sincere person. And in fact it is Krsna Himself who has guided you, as Supersoul, to the right person and shown you who is the right person and who is the wrong person.
Indrayumna— So they are saying like that, that we can only accept Prabhupāda as the guru. But that’s never been in our Gauḍīya Vaiṣṇava tradition, or any sampradāya.
damaghosa–Another lie or fabrication.
Prabhupada himself told us that the reason the Gaudiya matha failed was because they disobeyed the orders of Bhaktisddhanta maharaja and then they themselves took over the Matha and sometimes because of so much lying ,cheating , they had to change the temple acarya sometimes 3 times a year. This same thing has happened to iskcon. It has broken down practically everywhere and you cant ever find Prabhuapdas books there in HIS temples anymore. What does that tell you? Prabhupada said we can open any number of temples in the world if we keep the Acarya in the center.
But now because they, (the bogus gurus) want him (Prabhupada ) out and themselves in, its like throwing a bunch of rocks into a pond by different people..
All you get is ripples of disharmony instead of ripples of ecstasy. There has to be ONE center otherwise it can never be harmonious and peaceful, what to speak of world wide productive for preaching. When this happened in the Gaudiya matha, Prabhupada says THIS caused the preaching to stop.
Indrayumna–Prabhupāda many times said that the spiritual master can accept disciples while he is living, but after he passes away, he can’t accept any more disciples.
damaghosa–I would really like to see where and when Srila Prabhupada said this outright lie-he says many times-I say just show me one place where Prabhupada says this. show the proof
Indrayumna-– How is it possible? How can he train them, enthuse them, inspire them in Kṛṣṇa consciousness? We need the living representative Prabhupāda said, “He, who is disciple now, if he is qualified, he will be spiritual master in the future.”
damaghosa–Its a well known fact that most of Prabhupadas disciples NEVER met their guru-and yet they were all disciples and given the instructions needed by their leaders or TP’s at that time. So there was never a lack of physical guidance.
If he is qualified he says-yes but none of us were ever qualified nor authorized. Just because one can follow the 4 reg’s and chant 16 rounds means one is now a human being-not necessarily a pure devotee capable of delivering people from birth and death.
Indrayumna— And Prabhupāda said on many occasions that he was training his disciples that in the future they would also be spiritual masters.
damaghosa–Yes Prabhupada was hoping for that, but why did he stop giving sannyas in 1977? And they still keep cranking them out in iskcon. Because as he said so many of these big big leaders /disciples were falling down. He was always hoping for our best, yet we failed to come up to his standard. So these words were meant for him most ambitious disciples who at least for some, already had their own pictures of the altars of Prabhupadas temples, before he departed even. I mean can you believe it? They could not even wait until he left his body.
Indrayumna--You think that all of the disciples of Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvatī who began initiating, were fully self realized souls? Every guru, you know, who accepts disciples since the times of Kṛṣṇa, was a fully realized soul?
damaghosa–Yes all the gurus in our disciplic succession (page 29 BG) were fully self realized pure devotees. As for the rest, who knows and that is not our concern anyway. The Gaudiya matha was and still is a mess, just like iskcon. These people in iskcon are more concerned with the many deviations present all over India in the form of brahmans, swamis, yogis and what they do, instead of what their own guru Srila Prabhupada told them to do. Why is that? Personal motivation
Indrayumna-– Sometimes yes, other times they were simply passing on the perfect message. “DISCIPLES OF MY DISCIPLES” So, then there is the other presentation, that Prabhupāda said these eleven men should, you know, be ṛtviks. But without going into all the dialog, and the tape conversations, and the things
Why is what Prabhupada said about “all these things” boring?? It should be enlivening to those who dont know, not boring. The problem is as always- ignorance of devotees to understand all that Prabhupada taught. When they dont know or even care to know then they deserve to be cheated.
Indrayumna–Prabhupāda wrote… I won’t bore you with all that, but if the need be, I will sometime refer to that. Prabhupāda did make those eleven men ṛtviks, which means they would perform initiating ceremony, they would chant on the beads, they would give the names, etc., because Prabhupāda was too sick to travel to do that. But it didn’t mean that after Prabhupāda’s departure they would continue to accept disciples on behalf of Śrīla Prabhupāda. The GBC asked Prabhupāda that question, “What about when you leave?” And Prabhupāda said, “They will be disciples of my disciples.” Okay? Just remember that one line.Prabhupāda said, “They will be disciples of my disciples.” “My disciples will be regular gurus,”
damaghosa–Here we get down to real nitty gritty of their misunderstandings. Disciple of my disciple means these ritviks would be initiating on behalf of Srila Prabhupada which means the new people were NOT disciples of those who were conducting the fire yajna. Prabhupada said I am the initiating guru and you (all the ritviks) are the instructing gurus. So in that sense the ritviks were “gurus” but they do not take on the karms of the new disciple at initiation-that karma goes to Srila Prabhupada and it is he who cleanses the new initiates, not the ritvik gurus.
He never said my disciples will become “regualr gurus” meaning diksa gurus.
Indrayumna— he said. Now, in order to substantiate their speculation, they twist everything, and turn everything, and take references from other places. “You can’t be a guru until you’re self-realized.” You know, everyone’s got their quote. But Prabhupāda said, “They will be disciples of my disciples, my granddisciples.” So this throws the whole ṛtvik philosophy out the window.
damaghosa--Grand disciple means the new initiate is now the grand disciple of Srila Prabhupada. And the ritvik is still a disciple of Prabhupada and those he initiates on behalf of Prabhupada is grand disciple.
This system is still followed today in the Ramanujacarya and Madhavacarys maths.
Indrayumna–But they are very organized, these ṛtvik people. There’s lots of papers, they put everything on e-mail, and they’re probably planning to come to Russia. So, if you get something on e-mail, you say, “My guru has not fallen. He helps me advance in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. He is connecting me to Śrīla Prabhupāda, Śrīla Prabhupāda is my śikṣā-guru.
damaghosa–Prabhupada said HE is the diksa guru and his disciples are all siksa gurus-its this fellow who has twisted things around.
Indrayumna— I’ve other śikṣā-gurus also in ISKCON who are always helping me.” Right? And, besides that, Prabhupāda said, “Disciple of my disciples.” So you just take this letter and throw it in a window. Do we think that Prabhupāda did want to change the system which has been in place since time immemorial?
damaghosa–This is another bogus argument-tradition. Tradition can be changed or made new by any self realized Acarya-that is his privilege. There are so many things Prabhupada did that did not follow the so called vedic “tradition
Indrayumna— That his disciple, who is qualified, eventually becomes the guru? Was Prabhupāda going to change something? Did he say something privately with somebody, or write one letter to somebody? No. Prabhupāda was following the system. He was ācārya. He was setting the example of the system which had been in place for millions of years. So this is a summary, a very, very brief summary of the ṛtvik situation.
damaghosa–Yes that is the vedic system, but Prabhupada sometimes did and did not follow the vedic system. (where do you find bramacarinis living in temples?) Just like sudras are never to be initiated by the vedic system, yet Srila Bhaktisiddhanta maharaja proved that pancaratriki system can and should be followed in kali yuga which means if one is initiated by a bona fide guru then his body immediately becomes brahmana. He is no longer a sudra by birth.
Indrayumna–And for lack of time and also because summary is easier to hear, or easier to read if we put it in a written form for disciples on my disciples’ conference, we’re just making a basic summary. But if there’s any particular questions about Gauḍīya Maṭh, about Nārāyaṇa Mahārāja, about ṛtvik, then you can write to me and I’ll answer these questions. But this should be enough for those, who are loyal ISKCON followers, to understand and accept.
damaghosa--Yes we have so many questions for you “maharaja” but I don’t think you will even understand those questions what to speak of knowing the proper answers.
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1.)May 2 1974 Bombay
Prabhupāda: Very good. This kind of meeting should be arranged. Hare Kṛṣṇa. [break] It is also our business, to kill all undesirable men so–called swamis, yogis, avatāras. What is that? Kṛṣṇa…
Girirāja: (reading) “Kṛṣṇa, who advented Himself just to kill all undesirable elements in the world…”
Prabhupāda: Yes. Similarly, this movement is advented to kill all the so–called yogis, swamis, avatāras, rascals, philosophers, commentators. We have to kill. Kill means… Where is your tilaka? You did not have tilaka in the morning?
Devotee: (indistinct)
Prabhupāda: Ah. So this is our one of the items, to vanquish all these rascals, so-called swamis. They say that “Why you criticize others also?” Because we have to vanquish them. Now these people cannot rise. When there is sunrise, there is no use of these glowworms. So this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is Kṛṣṇa Himself. Therefore they must be finished, all over the world. So-called religionists, so-called philosophers, so-called avatāras, swamis, yogis—finished. Our program should be like that. [break] …all these rascals, anymore to flourish. That is one of our program. [break]
2.)..SB 10.3.21 purport….The entire world is now full of many asuras in the guise of politicians, gurus, sādhus, yogīs and incarnations, and they are misleading the general public away from Krsna consciousness, which can offer true benefit to human society.
Just so some don’t get “too carried away”… here is what SP says about why Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu came…..
3.)…SSR 5..... Within this world there are two classes of men—the demons and the devotees. The devotees are called demigods; they are almost like God because they have godly qualities. Those who are devotees are called godly persons, and those who are nondevotees, atheists, are called demons. So Kṛṣṇa, or God, comes with two missions: to give protection to the devotees and to destroy the demons. In this age Caitanya Mahāprabhu’s mission is also like that: to deliver the devotees and to annihilate the nondevotees, the demons. But in this age He has a different weapon. That weapon is not a club or disc or lethal weapon—His weapon is the saṅkīrtana movement. He killed the demoniac mentality of the people by introducing the saṅkīrtana movement. That is the specific significance of Lord Caitanya. In this age people are already killing themselves. They have discovered atomic weapons with which to kill themselves, so there is no need for God to kill them. But He appeared to kill their demonic mentality. That is possible by this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement.
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4.) Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sajana Toshani (18.2.13-14)
“After the time of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, those faithful to Him kept apart from non devotees, to avoid contamination. Seeing this, the personality of Kali sent his representatives in disguise to pollute the Vaisnava sampradaya. Posing as Vaisnavas, they spread their wicked doctrines, and appeared so intelligent and devoted that only pure devotees could detect their real identity. “
5.)Śrī Guru-Tattva and the Secret of Dīkṣā (By: Śrīla Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī Ṭhākura Prabhupāda)
Sri Guru Tattva and the Secret of Diksa (Part 3)
Rajen Babu: Isn’t the kanistha-adhikari qualified to give initiation into the mantra?
Srila Sarasvati Prabhupada: Where is the kanishtha-adhikari coming from? Who gave him the adhikara? A kanishtha-adhikari can never become a guru.
Rajen Babu: Can a madhyama-adhikari give diksa?
Prabhupada: He can only perform the initial duties of diksa. It is the uttama adhikari maha-bhagavata Vaisnava who is actually the diksa-guru. There are two types of Vaisnavas – the ragatmika and the raganuga. Those who are from the eternal realm offer service to Sri Krsna directly. These ragatmikas serve Sri Varshabhanavi and Her direct expansions. Those who perform direct service to the ragatmikas and take shelter in them through the performance of smarana are raganugas. These are spiritual gurus.
(Page 15)
6.) If the guru becomes attached to sense gratification, loses his sense of duty, and follows a degraded path, a path other than devotional service to the Lord, he should be rejected. (Mahabharata, Udyoga Parva 179.25)
Sept 2 1970 letter…I have tried to give you all Krsna Consciousness, now it is your duty to develop it. If you remain strong on the spiritual platform then your progress will not be checked or blocked. I do not know what was resolved in New Vrindavan although Sriman Rupanuga Prabhu has informed others that he has sent a tape in this connection. I am still in darkness about the proceedings in New Vrndavana, but I have heard that Brahmananda is preaching about me that I am Krsna, that I am Supersoul, that I have withdrawn my mercy from the disciples, that I have left the Society and so on. I do not know how far they are correct, but I have written him a letter that he may not do something which may harm the interest of the Society. You are also one of the members of the GBC, so you can think over very deeply how to save the situation. It is a fact however that the great sinister movement is within our Society. I have not heard anything from Krsna das or Syamasundara., so all of you may try to save the Society from this dangerous position.
Hare Krsna
damaghosa das