Morning Walk—December 7, 1973, Los Angeles:
Bali Mardana: If someone is actually sincere, can he be cheated or will he always get a bona fide guru?
Prabhupāda: No, if he is sincere he’ll get. Yes. Guru-kṛṣṇa-kṛpāya pāya bhakti-latā-bīja [Cc. Madhya 19.151]. Guru and Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa is within you. As soon as He sees that you are sincere, He’ll give you the right person.
Bali Mardana: So if you are not completely sincere, you might get a Guru Maharaji.
Prabhupāda: Huh?
Bali Mardana: If you’re not completely sincere, you might get someone else.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Because you want to be cheated, you go to the cheater. That’s all. Ye yathā māṁ prapadyante tāṁs tathaiva bhajāmy aham [Bg. 4.11]. Kṛṣṇa is intelligent, superintelligent. If you are a cheater, He’ll cheat you. He’ll cheat you. First-class cheat, Kṛṣṇa. But if you’re actually sincere, then He’ll give you the right thing. That is stated in the Bhag…, mattaḥ smṛtir jñānam apohanaṁ ca: [Bg. 15.15] “Everything is coming from Me: smṛtiḥ, remembrance, and forgetfulness.” If you are a cheater, Kṛṣṇa will give you such intelligence, you’ll forget Kṛṣṇa forever.
Dr. Wolfe: Śrīla Prabhupāda, so it is so, “Birds of a feather flock together.” The cheaters flock together.
Prabhupāda: Yes. “Birds of the same feather flock together.”
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Below is a comment made by one prominent leader…..
Yes, but even in ISKCON they are chanting from Prabhupada’s books and hear his kirtans, bhajans, follow his instructions to some degree, and thus they are benefitted somewhat in spite of their misleaders. I myself served under these misleaders who had hijacked the mission for many years, yet I know that I made advanacement in that time, because I was hearing from Srila Prabhupada and following his instructions. It is not all black and white.
So this devotee leader above says you can make advancement even while serving under bogus gurus-which he agrees are “bogus-but here is what our spiritual master tells us (and there is many more quotes along this line of thought)
1. Honolulu july 4 1974-
Sudāmā: There also is the position of or some question is raised as to how to actually follow the authority. What is the authority between…?
Prabhupāda: Authority is your spiritual master. You do not know who is authority? Why this question is there? If one is initiated, then he accepted the authority. And if he does not follow the instruction of spiritual master, he is a rascal. He is defying the authority. That’s all.
Sudāmā: The question also is there: the authority is the spiritual master, but the via media to the spiritual master… The difference between, like we were discussing in the automobile of śikṣā and dīkṣā-guru.
Prabhupāda: Then so śikṣā and dīkṣā-guru… A śikṣā-guru who instructs against the instruction of spiritual, he is not a śikṣā guru. He is a demon. Śikṣā-guru, dīkṣā-guru means… Sometimes a dīkṣā-guru is not present always. Therefore one can take learning, instruction, from an advanced devotee. That is called the śikṣā-guru. Śikṣā-guru does not mean he is speaking something against the teachings of the dīkṣā-guru. He is not a śikṣā-guru. He is a rascal.
Because that is offense. Guror avajñā. First offense is guror avajñā, defying the authority of guru. This is the first offense. So one who is offensive, how he can make advance in chanting? He cannot make. Then everything is finished in the beginning
(In the above quote Srila Prabhupada tells us that if somebody says anything different than his initiating guru, then he is a demon and everything is finished-even in the beginning of this offense, what to speak of later)
So one may argue , that since his bogus guru JPS was most of the time absent, this means that most of the time he was doing some “service” without JPS’s being there. He was thinking that just because JPS was not physically there it means he was making “advancement”. So here this concept of physicality again comes into our view, that you “need” a living guru to instruct and guide us. But it is not the physicality of a bona fide guru being present that determines our service to be spiritual, but our surrender to his instructions that makes our activity spiritual. Therefore since he was following a bogus persons authority, all his activities either when JPS was present or not present, were useless. On principle, all our activities are supposed to approved and guided by guru, whether he is present or not. Therefore the conclusion should be that if one is “surrendered” to some rascal, then ALL his activites are useless and that is why Srila Prabhupada tells us that BOTH the bogus guru AND his followers are all going to hell. (see the 4 quotes below)
Prabhupada above tells us that “everything is finished, in the beginning”–
He also says “So if you are offensive, how you can become advanced? That is not possible.
2.Oct 6 1967 letter
Kirtanananda may be eager to address in the Harvard university but recently he has lost his link on account of disobedience. You sing every day morning that by the mercy of the Spiritual master one can please the Lord and one who has not pleased the spiritual master cannot have any access in the realm of Krishna Consciousness. Very recently Kirtanananda has developed a different consciousness of maya which is called misuse of one’s minute independence offered by Krishna. By misuse of one’s independence one at once becomes a victim of maya and thus he loses all importance in Krishna Consciousness. So it is my definite opinion that his lecture anywhere now will bear no spiritual sequence. He must rectify his mistake before he can play in our Society any important role. By lips he says that he is a surrendered soul but by action he is thinking differently.
Comment-here again above Srila Prabhupada is telling us that once one become disobedient– you lose your “link”
And once this link is gone, then anything he or she may do, after this loss, is misuse of independence and useless for any spiritual activity. Seems very clear to me. It is all about obedience-totally, to guru which determines advancement and where we are headed in the near future. Maybe people are confusing improvement of material well being, with spiritual advancement.
Below we have 4 quotes about the destination of one who follows bogus gurus-both guru and disciple go to hell !!
So if you consider making advancement in “hell”, good, then go for it.
1.)Follow bogus guru-you go to hell
SB 1.19.37 P The Appearance of Sukadeva Gosvami Unless one is perfectly anxious to inquire about the way of perfection, there is no necessity of approaching a spiritual master. A spiritual master is not a kind of decoration for a householder. Generally a fashionable materialist engages a so-called spiritual master without any profit. The pseudo spiritual master flatters the so-called disciple, and thereby both the master and his ward go to hell without a doubt.
2.)72-12-14.Letter: Tusta Krsna As for your next question, can only a few pure devotees deliver others, anyone, if he is a pure devotee he can deliver others, he can become spiritual master. But unless he on that platform he should not attempt it. Then both of them will to go to hell, like blind men leading the blind.
3.)SB 6.7.14 Indra Offends His Spiritual Master, Brhaspati. Leaders who have fallen into ignorance and who mislead people by directing them to the path of destruction [as described in the previous verse] are, in effect, boarding a stone boat, and so too are those who blindly follow them. A stone boat would be unable to float and would sink in the water with its passengers. Similarly, those who mislead people go to hell, and their followers go with them.
4.)Isopanisad Mantra 12:
They ignore the Vedic injunction ācāryopāsana-“One must worship the ācārya“-and Kṛṣṇa’s statement in the Bhagavad-gītā (4.2) evaṁ paramparā-prāptam, “This supreme science of God is received through the disciplic succession.” Instead, to mislead the people in general they themselves become so-called ācāryas, but they do not even follow the principles of the ācāryas.
These rogues are the most dangerous elements in human society. Because there is no religious government, they escape punishment by the law of the state. They cannot, however, escape the law of the Supreme, who has clearly declared in the Bhagavad-gītā that envious demons in the garb of religious propagandists shall be thrown into the darkest regions of hell (Bg. 16.19-20). Śrī Īśopaniṣad confirms that these pseudo religionists are heading toward the most obnoxious place in the universe after the completion of their spiritual master business, which they conduct simply for sense gratification.
(Below, we have some “extra quotes” )
Plotinus discussions – Hayagriva
So even if he is…, are in this material body, if you are engaged in Kṛṣṇa’s service, that is liberation. Hitvā anyathā rūpaṁ sva-rūpeṇa vyavasthitiḥ. When we give up our otherwise life… “Otherwise life” means to be engaged in māyā’s service—as the head of the family, head of the community, head or member of this and… We have designated in so many ways. So that is our conditional life. And the same service, when we render to Kṛṣṇa cent percent, we are liberated. Sva-rūpeṇa vyavasthitiḥ. That is mukti. … Bhakti means the activities of liberated life. One may understand or not understand; if he is actually engaged in Kṛṣṇa’s service, under the direction of spiritual master, he is liberated. But if he voluntarily accepts again māyā’s service, then he is become conditioned. This is the secret.
TLC 18–Unless one is under the shelter of a realized spiritual master, his understanding of the Supreme is simply foolishness.
SB 3.24.12 purport-
Brahmā praises Kardama because he carried out the orders of the spiritual master in toto and without cheating. A conditioned soul in the material world has the disqualification of cheating. He has four disqualifications: he is sure to commit mistakes, he is sure to be illusioned, he is prone to cheat others, and his senses are imperfect. But if one carries out the order of the spiritual master by disciplic succession, or the paramparā system, he overcomes the four defects. Therefore, knowledge received from the bona fide spiritual master is not cheating. Any other knowledge which is manufactured by the conditioned soul is cheating only.
1). “A person who knows things as they are and still does not bear witness becomes involved in sinful activities.” (CC Madhya 5.90)
(2). Prabhupada: But one who tolerates mischievous activity, he is also culprit. If you are mischievous, you are criminal. But if you tolerate mischievous activities that is also criminal. (Conv, May 3, 1973)
- “Brahmanas, the topmost section of human society, are mostly devotees. They are generally unaware of the happenings within the material world because they are always busy in their activities for spiritual advancement. Nonetheless, when there is a calamity in human society, they cannot remain impartial. If they do not do something to relieve the distressed condition of human society, it is said that due to such neglect their spiritual knowledge diminishes.” (SB 4.14.41 Purport)
So our business is to accept a bona fide spiritual master, being guided by him, to follow the rules and regulations. Then advancement is sure. There is no doubt about it. And if we become hodgepodge and mix with hodgepodge and do hodgepodge, there is no progress. Srila Prabhupada Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam 6.2.24-25 —Gorakhpur, February 13, 1971
The 4th regulative principle is–no gambling and no speculation
Adi 8.15 : PURPORT :
Śrīla Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvati Ṭhākura comments in this connection that people in general, in their narrow-minded conception of life, create many different types of humanitarian activities, but the humanitarian activities inaugurated by Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu are different.For logicians who want to accept only that which is proven through logic and argument, it is a fact that without logic and reason there can be no question of accepting the Absolute Truth.Unfortunately, when such logicians take to this path without the mercy of Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu, they remain on the platform of logic and argument and do not advance in spiritual life. However, if one is intelligent enough to apply his arguments and logic to the subtle understanding of the fundamental spiritual substance, he will be able to know that a poor fund of knowledge established on the basis of material logic cannot help one understand the Absolute Truth, which is beyond the reach of imperfect senses. The Mahābhārata therefore says: acintyāḥ khalu ye bhāvā na tāṁs tarkeṇa yojayet. (Mahābhārata, Bhīṣma-parva 5.22) How can that which is beyond the imagination or sensory speculation of mundane creatures be approached simply by logic? Logic and argument are very poor in spiritual strength and always imperfect when applied to spiritual understanding. By putting forward mundane logic one frequently comes to the wrong conclusion regarding the Absolute Truth, and as a result of such a conclusion one may fall down to accept a body like that of a jackal
June 11 1974 Paris
Paramahaṁsa: That means sometimes we might have to compromise in certain ways.
Prabhupāda: Why compromise? You don’t compromise. Then you associate with him. If you make compromise, then you associate with him. Then gradually you’ll also go down. When we, when we see some person, we do not associate with him, but we give him chance to associate with me. Why you should make compromise? What is the reason? If you know something positively, why should you make compromise? When people come to talk with me, see me, I don’t make any compromise. Do I make any compromise?
Hyderabad Nov 23 1972
Then again, mandāḥ: all rascals. Mandāḥ,third class; no first-class men. Practically no brahminical qualification. All śūdra qualification. Therefore mandāḥ. Sumanda–matayaḥ. And if one comes forward to be spiritually enlightened, he accepts something bogus, which has no meaning, without any reference to the śāstras. Therefore mandāḥ sumanda–matayaḥ. They have got a opinion, and that is going on. You may have any opinion. That is all right. This foolishness is going on in this age. Mandāḥ sumanda–matayaḥ. Manda–bhāgyāḥ, and most unfortunate. Everyone is practically unfortunate
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Some Conclusions–This Krsna Consciousness is the greatest science and it is understood not at all by somebody who is personally motivated. So our real business is to accept the bona fide knowledge given thru the bona fide disciplic succession of a bona fide spiritual master. Understanding who that bona fide person is, and what he teaches lays in our hands of comprehension. Even if one is what Srila Prabhupada calls- “less intelligent” -that is no bar from understanding these truths for Krsna within our hearts will guide us. It is all a matter of being serious and sincere.
Hare Krsna
damaghosa das