April 22 1974 Hyderabad conversations/mock debate with Srila Prabhupada
“That is the point. If you love God, then why you disobey His order?”
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Prabhupāda: …principles? What we should inform to the people in general?
Pañcadraviḍa: I try to remember that Lord Caitanya, He informed that the purpose of all Vedic literatures is to acquaint people with their relationship which they have forgotten with God, to teach them how to engage themself in that relationship and to understand that the goal is to come to pure love of God…..
Prabhupāda: No, they will say that “We have not forgotten God. We go to church regularly.” And the Mohammedans will say that “We go to mosque. So why we have forgotten God?”
Pañcadraviḍa: Going to church or mosque… When we are speaking to the people, we don’t discourage that they change their religion or anything.
Prabhupāda: No. You, your charge is that they have forgotten God. They will answer that “We have not forgotten God. We are going to church, we are going to our mosque. Why we have forgotten God?”
Pañcadraviḍa: Because they are not serving Him… [break] …relationship. They are not actively serving Him. They are engaging themselves… We see practically that some people say they are theists…
Prabhupāda: Then what is the meaning of service?
Pañcadraviḍa: Service means a relationship of serving out of love. So people are simply serving their stomach or…
Prabhupāda: “So if I haven’t got love, then why I am coming to church?“
Satsvarūpa: Well, we’re educating them what is God. They go to church, but they don’t know. “What is your idea of God?” We ask them.
Prabhupāda: “Whatever it may be, when I offer my prayers, I remember there is some God. I may not have clear idea. I have got my own conception of God.” So what is the answer?
Satsvarūpa: Well, there are symptoms if you… We don’t discourage, as Pañcadraviḍa Mahārāja says, but if you are following God, the best religion is that which develops love of God.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is answered. “If I haven’t got love for God, then why I am coming to church?”
Pañcadraviḍa: If you have love for God, why you are coming to church?
Prabhupāda: No. “Because I have got love for God, therefore I am coming to church. At that time I could have earned some money.“
Pañcadraviḍa: But we’re also teaching that this love, love is not just based on sentimentality. Love is also practical. Just like in this world, when there is relationship between man and woman, there is a practical exchange of love. It is not simply that love is only based on words. Also one is based on actions. We can judge how much a man is developing love by what his activities are.
Prabhupāda: “So what you have found in me that you have concluded that I have no love for God. What you have seen in me?”
Pañcadraviḍa: I have not concluded that… When I speak with a person, I do not say, “I have concluded that you have no love of God.”
Prabhupāda: “You say. That you have charged, but on what account you say like that? What I have done?”
Nitai: Because you go to church only for one hour all week. The rest of the time is not spent in serving God.
Prabhupāda: That may be. But that does not mean that I do not love God.
Satsvarūpa: Well we don’t criticize your love of God, but it can be increased. Kṛṣṇa says in Bhagavad-gītā always think of Him in whatever you do, during your work, during the week. We can teach you how to… You like to go to church? That shows you have some affection for God. We can teach you how, wherever you are, to think of Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: This is not proper answer.
Pañcadraviḍa: Then if you have love of God, then we are also spreading this consciousness of love of God all over the whole world to people who have not developed that love, then you should willingly engage yourself in supporting this work.
Prabhupāda: “But we are also preaching.” Mohammedans will say, “We preaching. We take also sword sometimes. If he does not believe in God, we cut his throat.” The Christian missionaries, they will also say that “We are also going on all over the world. We have made so many big church.“
Pañcadraviḍa: We have also got our work, and we show them…
Prabhupāda: No, no. How do you say that you are better than him? If they are also doing, it may be difference of degrees, but we are also doing the same thing.
Pañcadraviḍa: If a person is having love of God, though, then his love is not simply confined to his own work. You say you are having love of God; we are also spreading this movement all over the world. So God is one…
Prabhupāda: “No, no, we are also preaching Christianity all over the world. Our number of Christians is higher than your number of devotees. Our preaching work is better than yours.”
Pañcadraviḍa: We ourselves are coming from Christian country, and we see that the entire society is so-called Christian, but…
Prabhupāda: Do you mean to say entire society is after you?
Pañcadraviḍa: Pardon me?
Prabhupāda: Can you prove that the entire society is after you only?
Pañcadraviḍa: We have got our society, this International Society for Kṛṣṇa Consciousness.
Prabhupāda: “That’s all right, we have got our society. But we are also preaching, and we have got many countries, we have got devotees, Christians. Number of Christian is greater than your number of Vaiṣṇava devotees.”
Akṣayānanda: So we are only requesting you to chant Hare Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: That is a process only. You are requesting chant Hare Kṛṣṇa; we are requesting prayer, ‘Give us our daily bread.’ That’s all. That is also prayer. This is chanting and that is prayer. So there is no difference.”
Akṣayānanda: But when we chant Hare Kṛṣṇa we are praying to God, “Please let me serve you.”
Prabhupāda: That is already settled. We are also serving. We are preaching Christianity.
Pañcadraviḍa: So then the work we are doing, God is one, we are all serving God, then there should be no objection to assisting us in propagating this love of God all over the world. You are already saying…
Prabhupāda: No, what is that love of God? That is already answered, that “We have also love of God.”
Pañcadraviḍa: If you love someone, what are you doing? What is the aspect of your personal life?
Prabhupāda: “No, what we are not doing? What you are doing?”
Pañcadraviḍa: Our engagement is twenty-four hours.
Prabhupāda: “That may be. One may be engaged twenty-four hours or may be engaged for eight hours. That does not mean, you cannot say that I have no love for God.” (pause)
Akṣayānanda: It has already been predicted in the śāstra that this method of chanting the holy name of God will be accepted by everyone in the world.
Prabhupāda: “That may be in your śāstra. But what is the extra thing? That chanting, that’s all right. We also go to the church and sing hymns also.”
Satsvarūpa: The fact is you do not know who God is. You do not know how God works. So…
Prabhupāda: “No, I know in my own way.”
Satsvarūpa: That is not sufficient. You should develop, become educated.
Prabhupāda: “But what is the use of it, having sufficiency? What is the distinction, that you have got sufficient love and therefore there is distin…?”
Satsvarūpa: Ah, I may not have sufficient love, but one who does, he’ll increase every way…
Prabhupāda: “But then if you have no sufficient love, you cannot preach. Why you are preaching for me? You just show me example.”
Akṣayānanda: You may be a very good example, but we see most of the Christians do not even follow the teachings. For example...
Prabhupāda: Here you have come to the real point. Here he has come to the point. That is the point. If you love God, then why you disobey His order? That means you do not love God. That is the real point. [break] …is that you love God for getting something from Him. But we do not love God for getting something. This is another point. So the first point is this. This is very important point, that if you love God, why you are becoming disobedient to the orders of God? That is the most important point.
Pañcadraviḍa: But if the man says, “I am Muslim; how you can say I am disobedient to the laws of God? I am following my own religion?”
Prabhupāda: No, no, we shall come to the Muslims next. First of all let us talk with the Christians.
Satsvarūpa: We are always arguing with them. They say they are following. They are allowed to kill animals.
Pañcadraviḍa: “I am accepting Christ. Therefore I am saved. I am following closely Christianity.”
Prabhupāda: No, no. If you love God, then why you are disobeying His order. That is my charge, first thing. God says, “Thou shalt not kill,” but why you are killing? This is the charge I give to the Christians.
Satsvarūpa: Yes, you always do that.
Prabhupāda: Yes. There they are captured.
Some Conclusions–This is a very very nice conversation with Srila Prabhupada over how to preach to Christians, Muslims etc. And to know how to do this one must have knowledge as we mentioned in the previous email….”Without becoming jñānī, nobody can become bhakta. Without knowledge, if one has become bhakta, he’s sentimentalist.”
And bhakti begins at the madhyama level not the neophyte platform of sentiment. Therefore Srila Prabhupada wanted all his disciples to come at least to the second level of Madhyama adhikari, or preachers. I really enjoy reading how Prabhupada captures his disciples in these mock debates to teach us all, what to do, and how to act. Many times Prabhupada would say his preaching in the western world was usually on two main topics-why are you killing and why can’t God have more than one son?
Hare Krsna
damaghosa das
