Can material science prove spiritual life?
Below is a very nice conversation with Srila Prabhupada explaining, again, what is the spiritual platform as opposed to the sensual, mental,and intellectual ones.
Definitely worth the time to read it
Hare Krsna
damaghosa das
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June 10 1975 Honolulu
Paramahaṁsa: So if a scientist or someone who has some degree in science comes to our movement, should we encourage him to try to prove through science the Kṛṣṇa conscious principle of transmigration and eternal quality of the soul?
Prabhupāda: Not necessary. Not necessary.
Paramahaṁsa: Better if he just…
Prabhupāda: It is not that if we prove scientifically there is soul, if there is scientific proof, not that all the people of the world will become Kṛṣṇa conscious, even if you do that. So it is useless. You simply understand what is stated by Kṛṣṇa.
Harikeśa: Can a material calculation prove a spiritual fact?
Prabhupāda: Huh?
Harikeśa: Can a material calculation prove…
Prabhupāda: No. Materialists cannot understand spiritual subject matter. It is not for them.
Harikeśa: So there is a project in Los Angeles where some psychologists are examining all the devotees.
Prabhupāda: Huh?
Harikeśa: Some psychologists are there. They are doing a laboratory test on all the devotees.
Prabhupāda: Yes, he may study in his own way, but he will not profit.
Harikeśa: He will not profit. So this, the findings, even if they are published will not profit?
Prabhupāda: Huh?
Harikeśa: The findings? They are going to…
Prabhupāda: So what is their findings? The devotees are working on the soul platform but he does not know what is soul.
Siddha-svarūpa: What are these experiments?
Harikeśa: They’re really far out. Actually, they’re crazy…
Prabhupāda: The psychology is on the mental platform.
Harikeśa: Yes.
Prabhupāda: So what he will understand about spiritual platform?
Harikeśa: Actually they can’t. They put these little things around fingers with wires and heads and they find that the readings are…
Prabhupāda: And our devotees also agreed to sit down like that?
Harikeśa: Yes. I thought it was ridiculous.
Śrutakīrti: They’re probably getting some money for doing it.
Harikeśa: Every week they go, and every week another man comes, and they give all of these tests, psychological tests. We would say yes or no to different questions, material questions.
Prabhupāda: So why do they agree to?
Harikeśa: They’re being, more or less, forced to.
Prabhupāda: Forced?
Harikeśa: Yes.
Śrutakīrti: They’re probably being paid.
Upendra: This is referring to that, in that transcendental meditation they have a chart that after transcendentally meditating, they are calm. But the result is that after chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa, the devotees are more calm, and they can remain calm more than this result of the transcendental meditation.
Harikeśa: But actually, that’s not true because some…
Prabhupāda: That transcendental meditation, that is a bogus humbug. So they are making experiment. So in that way it is good for us, that they’re better than transcendental meditation.
Harikeśa: But sometimes the devotees become very excited, you see, when we chant and the test goes up.
Upendra: No, but this is… Dharmādhyakṣa was… He did it. The same result, they have to act the same way. They have to chant their japa nicely. And then the transcendental meditationist will meditate his way. But the results are coming out better in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Dharmādhyakṣa, at least, and Guru dāsa said so I’m not sure. It hasn’t been working yet.
Prabhupāda: In the Bhagavad-gītā it is said that beyond the senses, the mind is there. Beyond the mind, the intelligence is there. Beyond the intelligence, the soul is there. So they are studying the mind. They are not even on the intelligence platform, and what to speak of spiritual platform? Mano-rathena asato dhavato, bahiḥ. These rascals, those who are on the mental plane, they will remain materialists. That’s all. They will not know, understand anything spiritual.
Harikeśa: So even if someone were to read the results of such a test, it would not convince them.
Prabhupāda: What…? What you…?
Siddha-svarūpa: They’re testing after a material thing. Try to understand it. They’re testing the mental plane and they’re thinking that that’s the spiritual plane.
Prabhupāda: Their position is described in the Bhagavad-gītā, avajānanti māṁ mūḍhā. These rascals, avajānanti, I mean to say, cares a fig for Kṛṣṇa, “Oh, Kṛṣṇa is also a very big man, that’s all.” Just the Arya Samaji says in India, that “We don’t accept Him as God, but He is a very big man, a very big politician, like that.” So that is described in the Bhagavad…, avajānanti māṁ mūḍhā mānuṣīṁ tanum āśritam, paraṁ bhāvam ajānanto [Bg. 9.11]. The paraṁ bhāvam, what is the actual significance, that is, they do not know. What is the actual significance of the soul and soul platform, spiritual…, that they do not know. They are studying from the mental platform. So they have to go beyond mental platform, avāṅ mānasa-gocara, beyond bodily mental platform. Then they will understand.
Harikeśa: So we shouldn’t bother with such tests?
Prabhupāda: No.
Siddha-svarūpa: By submitting to them we’re actually… We’re endorsing that they are dealing with the spiritual.
Prabhupāda: When they come first of all, you have to inform them that “We are working on the platform of the soul. What do you know about the soul?”
Harikeśa: This psychologist has become a devotee.
Prabhupāda: That is another thing. He might have failed in his mental working in the mental plane. Then he has come. That is another thing.
Harikeśa: But still he wants to try and prove Kṛṣṇa consciousness through this psychological testing.
Prabhupāda: No, what he will prove, psychological…? Psychological means mental plane. How he will understand soul from the mental platform? That is not possible.
Bali-mardana: What they want to know is the effect of the, the effect on the mind of the soul.
Prabhupāda: Effect will be good. As soon as one is on the platform of the soul, the intelligence, mind, body, everything will be good.
Bali-mardana: That is what they are studying.
Prabhupāda: Yes, that is another thing. Just like if you get millions of dollars, ten dollars is already there. You haven’t got to endeavor for ten dollars. Similarly, if one who is on the platform of soul… Yasmin vijñāte sarvam evaṁ vijñātaṁ bhavati (Muṇḍaka Upaniṣad 1.3). If you understand the platform of soul, then you understand the other platforms: the intellectual platform, mental platform, bodily platform. And platform of knowledge, pratyakṣa, parakṣa, aparakṣa, adhokṣaja, aprakṛta. So aprakṛta is this platform of the soul. Kṛṣṇa’s activities, that is aprakṛta, completely far beyond these material ideas, material platform. Material platform, pratyakṣa. Just like you want to see the arrangement. That is pratyakṣa. Then aparakṣa, accepting the authority’s version. Pratyakṣa, parakṣa. Then aparakṣa, then adhokṣaja, beyond your mental speculation. Then aprakṛta, spiritual. Spiritual platform is not understood by machine, material machine. Then what is the spiritual platform? Kṛṣṇa is understood not by machine. Kṛṣṇa says, bhaktyā mām abhijānāti: [Bg. 18.55] “Through devotion only.” So devotion is not machine. That is spiritual activity.
Harikeśa: So you cannot understand the consciousness of a devotee by testing his body.
Prabhupāda: Huh?
Harikeśa: You cannot understand the consciousness of a devotee by testing his body or his mind.
Prabhupāda: No, consciousness means… That is mental platform. Consciousness is also in different platform, bodily consciousness, mental consciousness, intellectual consciousness, then spiritual consciousness. Kṛṣṇa consciousness is spiritual consciousness.
Harikeśa: So there is no way they can understand. No way.
Prabhupāda: How they will understand? First of all let them explain what does he mean by soul? That they cannot explain. They take mind as the ultimate, that’s all.
Siddha-svarūpa: Yes. And they see whether or not the mind is moving like this or like this or like this or like that, and then they have a gauge which says, “This is perfect.” So they’re seeing… They’re judging whether or not…
Prabhupāda: But we say, “Any position on the mental platform, it is all nonsense.” Mano-rathena sato dhavato bahiḥ.
Harikeśa: So the mind of a devotee is based on the activities of his spiritual practices.
Prabhupāda: Mind of a devotee is upon Kṛṣṇa. So what they will understand, that mind is in Kṛṣṇa? What they will understand?
Harikeśa: So according to different transcendental emotions, the mind will be agitated or calm or…?
Prabhupāda: It is not mind. It is spirit soul. You also do not understand.
Harikeśa: That’s a fact.
Prabhupāda: Spiritual platform is different. But the spiritual activities expressed through mind, through body, through intelligence. That’s it.
Harikeśa: Yes. So that will bewilder them, this expression.
Prabhupāda: Huh?
Harikeśa: This expression through the…, it will bewilder them.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes.
Siddha-svarūpa: See, the materialist is seeing that everyone is agitated, so the goal in their life is cessation of that agitation. They want to merge or cease their existence. They want to go into nothingness. So…
Prabhupāda: Yes, that is their…
Siddha-svarūpa: …this is what they’re looking for. The transcendental meditator goes in so that the gauge doesn’t make any motion. But a rock, if you put that same gauge on a rock it also doesn’t make motion. Does that mean the rock is spiritual or that he’s more advanced than someone else?
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Siddha-svarūpa: You see? They’re saying that perfection is no motion. They’re saying that perfection is inactivity. So they already have in their mind what they think is perfect, and then they’re going to see if this method helps a person to achieve calmness or whatever they’re calling perfection.
Prabhupāda: That is that Buddha philosophy, nirvāṇa. Nirvāṇa, stop all activities. Buddha philosophy.
Harikeśa: So someone who’s actually following the scientific method, when he comes up to these bewildering conclusions about a devotee, he will be forced to inquire into the spiritual consciousness? Therefore we might be able to say this is a bona fide thing.
Prabhupāda: Huh?
Harikeśa: Because they are bewildered—they will see the conclusions, they are bewildered—they will then have to inquire further, “Well, why is this? Why is this?” They will have to come to the spiritual platform to understand.
Prabhupāda: Yes, yes.
Harikeśa: Therefore we can make the devotees through this…?
Siddha-svarūpa: But they’re bewildered already. They don’t need to look at their graphs to become bewildered. (laughs)
Harikeśa: But they don’t think they’re bewildered, so that’s the difference.
Siddha-svarūpa: Well, when they see their graphs, they still may not think they’re bewildered. They may make the conclusion…
Harikeśa: No, they even admit they’re bewildered.
Prabhupāda: The reply was given by Socrates. He was condemned to death. So the judges inquired, “Mr. Socrates, what kind of grave you will like?” So he answered, “First of all, catch me. Then talk of grave.” (laughter) So…
Paramahaṁsa: Śrīla Prabhupāda…
Prabhupāda: They are not on the spiritual platform, so all their studies are useless. They are studying with a pre-concept idea.
Siddha-svarūpa: Right. So that when you don’t fit into their preconceived idea…
Prabhupāda: It is called, in logic it is called prititio principia(?). So it is useless.
Paramahaṁsa: In our movement, Śrīla Prabhupāda, we have that group of scientists who are preparing that book, The Origin of Life, but will they actually be able to prove anything through that book?
Prabhupāda: Huh?
Paramahaṁsa: Will they actually be able to prove anything by scientific presentation or…?
Prabhupāda: Yes, that is science. If you can prove it by experiment. Otherwise, it is not science, theory.
Paramahaṁsa: But how can they prove the existence of the soul through experiment?
Prabhupāda: No, first of all let them prove by chemical composition they can produce life. Then we shall talk of soul. First of all let them, in the laboratory, let the chemicals be mixed up and produce a small ant. Then we shall understand.
Siddha-svarūpa: We don’t need to make experiments.
Harikeśa: They can make these little amoebas but they can’t make ants.
Prabhupāda: Amoebas, that is automatically… By perspiration it comes out. There are four sources of life: udbija, jarayuja, svedaja, and, what is other? Andaja. Andaja means life comes from the egg. That is called andaja. And life comes from, under certain circumstances… Just like trees, grass. It is called udbija. And then jarayaja, just like we human beings or animals, they come from the embryo. And svedaja. And some living entities come out from perspiration.
Harikeśa: So they were saying in this experiment they made that they completely…
Prabhupāda: Four kinds of generating process is there. So what they have studied? That germs come out perspiration, that is already accepted in the Vedas. Under certain circumstances the germs come by, what is called? Scientific name?
Siddha-svarūpa: I don’t know.
Prabhupāda: Just like bugs, bed bugs. Due to your perspiration of the body, the bed being unclean, they come.
Harikeśa: So the capability was already there in like seed, and you just watered it.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes.
Harikeśa: So when they said they created life in this laboratory experiment, the capability…
Prabhupāda: But that also they cannot do. That also they cannot do.
Harikeśa: But the capability was there and they just watered it. They…
Prabhupāda: What is the capability?
Harikeśa: There was one of these four circumstances for life in that test…
Prabhupāda: Potency, that is potency.
Harikeśa: Yeah. And they just made the circumstance proper so that life came.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Harikeśa: That is their big thing on the path to becoming God.
Prabhupāda: For the time being, let them be kicked by the God’s servant, that’s all. Then some day they will become God. For the time being, let them be kicked. That’s all.
Harikeśa: Actually the whole field of psychology is going towards yoga.
Prabhupāda: Yoga?
Harikeśa: Because they are trying to become calm and peaceful and control their body for long periods of time.
Devotee: This way, Śrīla Prabhupāda. The car is here.
Śrutakīrti: The car is…
Harikeśa: So we went to a convention two weeks ago, and they were all doing their scientific experiments, and they were trying so many different methods to enjoy sex life and be happy, and then the last day we had a big kīrtana for two and a half hours. And all of these people who were so frustrated by all of their other methods came, psychologists and professors and chairmens of department, and little old ladies, and they were all jumping up and down in ecstasy for two and a half hours.
Prabhupāda: Just see.
Harikeśa: And they said, “Oh, this is the best process. Because this is joyful realization.” They said, “You people really have something here.“
Prabhupāda: So in that way, if they understand, that is good.
Harikeśa: That seemed to be the only way they’ll understand.
Siddha-svarūpa: So that’s more effective than making some experiments and bringing them some graphs.
Harikeśa: Also they loved prasādam.
Prabhupāda: No, no. That they are realizing, that how these hippies, they have given up everything, and they are now enjoying saṅkīrtana. That they are realizing. Because they know most of our devotees coming from the hippie community. So they are surprised, “How the hippies they have given up everything and they’re enjoying saṅkīrtana?” That is already their problem, another, that “There must be something.” Therefore these big, big professors study. [break]
The Obvious Conclusion—Glory to the Śrī Kṛṣṇa saṅkīrtana, which cleanses the heart of all the dust accumulated for years and extinguishes the fire of conditional life, of repeated birth and death. This saṅkīrtana movement is the prime benediction for humanity at large because it spreads the rays of the benediction moon. It is the life of all transcendental knowledge. It increases the ocean of transcendental bliss, and it enables us to fully taste the nectar for which we are always anxious.
