Ramananda Raya’s conversation with Lord Caitanya

TLC 32 Conclusion

Lord Caitanya next asked Ramananda Raya, “What is the most valuable

thing in the world?”

Ramananda Raya replied that he who has love for

Radha-Krsna possesses the most valuable jewel and the greatest riches.

One who is addicted to material sense gratification or material wealth

is not really considered to be wealthy. When one comes to the

spiritual platform of Krsna consciousness, he can understand that

there are no riches more valuable than love of Radha-Krsna. It is

recorded in Srimad-Bhagavatam that Maharaja Dhruva sought out the

Supreme Lord because he wanted to get some land, but when he finally

saw Krsna, he said, “I am so pleased, I don’t want anything.” In

Bhagavad-gita it is also stated that if one takes shelter of the

Supreme Personality of Godhead or is elevated to the supreme state of

love of Godhead, he has nothing more to aspire to. Although such

devotees can attain whatever they desire from the Lord, they do not

ask anything from Him.

When Lord Caitanya asked Ramananda Raya what is considered to be

the most painful existence,

Ramananda Raya replied that separation

from a pure devotee constitutes the most painful existence. In other

words, when there is no devotee of the Lord present, there is great

suffering in society, and association with other people becomes

painful. In ▼Srimad-Bhagavatam (3.30.7) it is stated that if one who

is bereft of the association of a pure devotee tries to become happy

through society, friendship and love devoid of Krsna consciousness, he

is to be considered in the most distressed condition. In the Fifth

Canto of Brhad-bhagavatamrta (5.44) it is stated that the association

of a pure devotee is more desirable than life itself and that in

separation from him one cannot even pass a second happily.

Lord Caitanya then asked Ramananda Raya, “Out of many so-called

liberated souls, who is actually liberated?”

Ramananda replied that he who is actually completely saturated with the devotional love for Radha and Krsna is to be considered to be the best of all liberated

persons. It is stated in ▼Srimad-Bhagavatam (6.14.4) that a devotee of

Narayana is so rare that one can only find him out of millions and

millions of people.

“And out of all songs, what song do you think is the best of all?”

Caitanya Mahaprabhu asked.

And Ramananda replied that any song which

describes the pastimes of Radha and Krsna is the best song. In

conditional life, the soul is captivated by sex. All fictions–dramas

and novels–and material songs describe love between men and women.

Since people are so attracted to this kind of literature, Krsna

appeared in this material world and displayed His transcendental

loving affairs with the gopis. There is an immense literature dealing

with the transactions between the gopis and Krsna, and anyone who

takes shelter of this literature or of the stories about Radha and

Krsna can enjoy actual happiness. In Srimad-Bhagavatam (10.33.36) it

is said that the Lord displayed His pastimes in Vrndavana in order to

reveal His actual life. Any intelligent person who tries to understand

the pastimes of Radha and Krsna is most fortunate. The songs that tell

of those pastimes are the greatest songs in the world.

Lord Caitanya then inquired: “What is the most profitable thing in

the world, the essence of all auspicious events?”

Ramananda Raya replied that there is nothing as profitable as the association of pure

devotees.

“And what do you recommend a person to think of?” Lord Caitanya

asked.

Ramananda replied that one should always think of the pastimes

of Krsna. This is Krsna consciousness. Krsna has multiple activities,

and they are described in many Vedic scriptures. One should always

think of those pastimes; that is the best meditation and the highest

ecstasy. In ▼Srimad-Bhagavatam (2.2.36) Sukadeva Gosvami confirms that

one should always think of the Supreme Personality of Godhead–not

only think of Him, but one should also hear and chant His name, fame

and glories.

“And what is the best type of meditation?” Lord Caitanya inquired.

“He who always meditates on the lotus feet of Radha and Krsna is

the best meditator,” Ramananda Raya answered. This is also confirmed

in ▼Srimad-Bhagavatam (1.2.14): “It is the Supreme Personality of

Godhead alone who is the master of all devotees, whose name one should

always chant and who should always be meditated upon and worshiped

regularly.”

“Where should a person live, giving up all other pleasures?” Lord

Caitanya next inquired.

Ramananda replied that one should give up all

other pleasures and should live in Vrndavana where Lord Krsna had so

many pastimes. In Srimad-Bhagavatam (10.47.61) Uddhava says that it is

best to live in Vrndavana even if one has to live as a plant or

creeper. It was in Vrndavana that the Supreme Lord lived and it was

there that the gopis worshiped the Supreme Lord, the ultimate goal of

all Vedic knowledge.

“And what is the best subject to hear of?” Caitanya Mahaprabhu next

asked.

“The pastimes of Radha and Krsna,” Ramananda replied. Actually when

the pastimes of Radha and Krsna are heard from the right source, one

at once attains liberation. Unfortunately it sometimes happens that

people do not hear of these pastimes from a person who is a realized

soul. Thus people are sometimes misguided. It is stated in

Srimad-Bhagavatam (10.33.40) that one who hears of the pastimes of

Krsna with the gopis will attain the highest platform of devotional

service and will be freed from the material lust which overwhelms

everyone’s heart in the material world. In other words, by hearing the

pastimes of Radha and Krsna, one can get rid of all material lust. If

one does not become freed from material lust in this way, then he

should not indulge in hearing of the pastimes of Radha and Krsna.

Unless one hears from the right source, he will misinterpret the

pastimes of Radha and Krsna, considering them to be ordinary affairs

between a man and woman. In this way one may be misguided.

“And who is the most worshipable Deity?” Caitanya Mahaprabhu next

inquired.

Ramananda Raya immediately replied that the transcendental

couple, Sri Radha and Krsna, is the ultimate object of worship. There

are many worshipable objects–the impersonalists worship the

brahmajyoti, for instance–but by worshiping objects other than Radha

and Krsna, one becomes bereft of life’s symptoms and becomes just like

a tree or other nonmoving entity. Those who worship the so-called void

also attain such results. Those who are after material enjoyment

(bhukti) worship the demigods and achieve their planets and thus enjoy

material happiness.

Lord Caitanya next inquired about those who are

after material happiness and liberation from material bondage. “Where

do they ultimately go?” He asked.

Ramananda Raya replied that ultimately some turn into trees and others attain the heavenly planets where they enjoy material happiness.

Ramananda Raya went on to say that those who have no taste for

Krsna consciousness or spiritual life are just like crows who take

pleasure in eating the bitter nimba fruit. It is the poetic cuckoo

that eats the seeds of the mango. The unfortunate transcendentalists

simply speculate on dry philosophy, whereas the transcendentalists who

are in love with Radha and Krsna enjoy fruit just like the cuckoo.

Thus those who are devotees of Radha and Krsna are most fortunate. The

bitter nimba fruit is not at all eatable; it is simply full of dry

speculation and is only fit for crowlike philosophers. Mango seeds,

however, are very relishable, and those in the devotional service of

Radha and Krsna enjoy them.

Thus Ramananda Raya and Caitanya Mahaprabhu talked for the entire

night. Sometimes they danced, sometimes sang and sometimes cried.

After passing the night in this way, at dawn Ramananda Raya returned

to his place. The next evening he returned to see Caitanya Mahaprabhu.

After discussing Krsna for some time, Ramananda Raya fell at the feet

of the Lord and said, “My dear Lord, You are so kind to me that You

have told me about the science of Krsna and Radharani and Their loving

affairs, the affairs of the rasa dance and Their pastimes. I never

thought that I should be able to speak on this subject matter. You

have taught me as You formerly taught the Vedas to Brahma.”

Being very satisfied, Lord Caitanya smiled and showed Ramananda His

real form as the combination of Sri Radha and Krsna. Thus Lord

Caitanya was Sri Krsna Himself with the external features of Srimati

Radharani. His transcendental ability to become two and then to become

one again was revealed to Ramananda Raya. Those who are fortunate

enough to understand Lord Caitanya as well as the Vrndavana pastimes

of Radha and Krsna can be able, by the mercy of Sri Rupa Gosvami, to

know about the real identity of Sri Krsna Caitanya Mahaprabhu.

Upon seeing this unique feature of Lord Caitanya, Ramananda Raya

fainted and fell on the floor. Lord Caitanya then touched him, and he

came to his senses. Ramananda Raya was then surprised to see Lord

Caitanya again in His mendicant dress. Lord Caitanya embraced and

pacified him and informed him that he was the only one to have seen

this form. “Because you have understood the purpose of My incarnation,

you are privileged to have seen this particular feature of My

personality,” the Lord said. “My dear Ramananda, I am not a different

person with a fair complexion known as Gaurapurusa. I am the selfsame

Krsna the son of Maharaja Nanda, and due to contact with the body of

Srimati Radharani I have now assumed this form. Srimati Radharani does

not touch anyone but Krsna; therefore She has influenced Me with Her

complexion, mind and words. In this way I am just trying to understand

the transcendental flavor of Her relationship with Krsna.”

The fact is that both Krsna and Lord Caitanya are the original

Personality of Godhead. No one should try to eliminate Lord Caitanya

from Sri Krsna. In His form of Sri Krsna, He is the supreme enjoyer,

and in His form of Lord Caitanya, He is the supreme enjoyed. No one

can be more superexcellently attractive than Sri Krsna, and but for

Sri Krsna, no one can enjoy the supreme form of devotion, Srimati

Radharani. But for Sri Krsna, all Visnu forms are lacking this

ability. This is explained in the description of Govinda in

Caitanya-caritamrta. There it is said that Srimati Radharani is the

only personality who can infuse Sri Krsna with transcendental

pleasure. Thus Srimati Radharani is the chief damsel of Vraja in love

with Govinda, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Sri Krsna.

You can understand this yourself and keep it to yourself. From

a materialistic point of view, a devotee becomes mad in his ecstasy of

love for Krsna. Both you and I are just like madmen. So please don’t

disclose these facts to ordinary men. If you do, they will surely

laugh at Me.”

Lord Caitanya then passed ten nights with Ramananda Raya, enjoyed

his company and discussed the pastimes of Krsna and Radha. The

discussions between them were on the highest level of love for Krsna.

Some of these talks are described, but most of them could not be

described.

In Caitanya-caritamrta this has been compared to

metallurgic examination. The metals compared are discussed in the

following sequence: first copper, then bronze, then silver, gold and

at last touchstone. The preliminary discussions between Lord Caitanya

and Ramananda Raya are considered to be like copper, and the higher

discussions are considered to be like gold. The fifth dimension of

their discussions, however, is considered to be like touchstone. If

one is eager to attain the highest understanding, he must begin with

an inquiry into the differences between copper and bronze, then silver

and gold and so on.

footnote–these last statements comparing different metals to sucessively higher understandings

refer to an earlier discussion between Ramananda Raya and Lord Caitanya where

5 basic ideas for Dharma were presented by Ramananda Raya beginning with- how one should

just perform his occupational duty;;next was give up all results to Krsna, then renunciation

without fruitive result; then brahman realization without fruitive work or mental speculation until finally he came to hearing from the lips of a pure devotee-which Lord Caitanya accepted as the

correct process for this age of Kali, since none of the previous methods are feasible due the implications and impurity of the age and its inhabitants..

Hare Krsna

Damaghosa das

Hare Krsna to all

Pranams

All glories to Srila Prabhupada

This book, Sri Chaitanya -Siksamrta is simply wonderful in that it contains so much pertinent information regarding the souls release from Maya in our conditional state. Here below is one short example contained in the sixth rainfall chapter.

But first, from Srila Prabhupadas books we have the 2 verses given by Srila Rupa Goswami in Nectar of Devotion which give in summary the progressive stages one will encounter on the road to Love of God, or Krsna Prema.

adau sraddha tatah sadhu-

ango ‘tha bhajana-kriya

tato ‘nartha-nivrttih syat

tato nistha rucis tatah

athasaktis tato bhavas

tatah premabhyudancati

sadhakanam ayam premnah

pradurbhave bhavet kramah

“In the beginning one must have a preliminary desire for self-realization. This will bring one to the stage of trying to associate with persons who are spiritually elevated. In the next stage one becomes initiated by an elevated spiritual master, and under his instruction the neophyte devotee begins the process of devotional service. By execution of devotional service under the guidance of the spiritual master, one becomes free from all material attachment, attains steadiness in self-realization, and acquires a taste for hearing about the Absolute Personality of Godhead, Sri Krsna. This taste leads one further forward to attachment for Krsna consciousness,

which is matured in bhava, or the preliminary stage of transcendental love of God. Real love for God is called prema, the highest perfectional stage of life.” In the prema stage there is constant engagement in the transcendental loving service of the Lord.

————————————————————————————————

Now here is what Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur writes on the same topic.

(please forgive any typos)

Upon examining the lives of devotees, it will be found that some have developed faith by studying the scriptures impartially. Many have developed faith by association with devotees and hearing their teachings. Others have developed faith in bhakti after performing duties according to varnashram and developing repulsion for taking material results from such activities. Others have developed faith through disgust for speculative knowledge. Others have developed faith suddenly.

There is no specific rule for the develolpment of faith, for faith , the seed of the creeper of bhakti is above the rules. Therefore, it may be said that faith develops only within the consciousness of a fortunate soul.

The end of executing karma according to ones varnashrama duties and the appearance of faith are simultaneous. When faith arises, the devotees become filled with hopeful anxiety. This sraddha (faith) is the first stage in the development of prema.

By previous material habits, the aspiring devotees are still controlled by sinful tendencies, but thinking of how to dissipate this evil, they take shelter at the feet of pure devotees. The aspirants begin to search out pure devotees free from material desires, and by Krsna’s mercy, they attain such association. This sadhu -sanga (association with devotees) is the second sign in the development of prema.

In that pure association, the devotees begin to carry out devotional activities, such as hearing and singing the glories of the Lord and remembering the form, qualities and pastimes of the Lord. With this practice, of bhakti, according to the five divisions mentioned previously, material sense pleasure and desire, which are the root of the material evils, become submissive to bhakti. Although the tendency to sinful activity remains within the body, the desire, the desire to sin is now given up. This is the third stage in attaining prema known as bhajana kriya (devotional action).

By cultivating devotion, attachment to material pleasure, sinful conduct, violence, greed and other material habits gradually decreases, and the devotee becomes progressively free of material desire. This is

anartha nivrtti (clearing of sin) the fourth stage.

When material desire dissipates , attachments to things other than the Lord also disappears. Faith becomes nistha (steadiness) in devotion to the Lord. As long as the anarthas remain, faith cannot be steadily applied to the Lord, so to the extent that the anarthas are extinguished, faith turns into nistha. This attainment of nistha is the fifth stage in attaining prema.

Attaining steadiness, devotees perform their devotional activities and take association with more care. By this the anarthas are further reduced and steadiness turns to joy in the Lords service. This is called ruci (taste). This is the sixth step. With ruci for Krsna is well established, everything else material becomes tastless.

When ruci becomes intense, along with greater destruction of sin, askati (attachment) appears. Asakti is still within the purview of sadhana bhakti. However, sadhana has now become perfect, devotional attachment has reached fullness, and the devotee feels successful. This askati is the seventh stage.

When asakti becomes completely full and deep it is called bhava,(ecstasy) or rati (the seedling of prema). At the stage of asakti, there is no manifestation of suddha sattva svarupa. This is attained at the stage of bhava, and so the heart melts becoming soft and smooth. This bhava is the eighth stage

When bhava attains exclusive possessiveness of Krsna, it is called prema, which is the state of permanent spiritual emotion suitable for rasa. This the ninth stage in devotional development.

The devotees performing sadhana bhakti should always be attentive to the condition of their devotion, perceiving the condition yesterday and that improvement made today. If they perceive that after some time no progress has been made according to the stages given above, they must understand that some offence must have been committed. Having diagnosed that offence, they should give it up and by association with devotees correct the harm done. Continuously cultivating bhakti and praying to Krsna , they should be careful that the offence does not occur again.

Those who do not care to examine their progress will advance very slowly because of unseen obstacles they have created. Devotees please take special precaution of this matter.

couple days ago with Kanhaiya doing puppet show

Daria, the forest dweller

sunrise @ Sri Sri Gaura Nitai Mandir ashram

the grape fence out back with spider webs

The Incomparable– Saksi Gopal !!

Sri Gaurangananta slathered in sandlewood paste and rose oil

Giriraj

presenting Sudarshan Chakra Maharja with His– “paraphernalia”

Varaha Dev

Hare Krsna to all
Pranams
All glories to Srila Prabhupada and
Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu

We here at Sri Sri Gaura Nitai Mandir celebrated the festival of Gaura Purnima today, and as
you can see from the photos, it was very nice and many devotees attended.
Fresh fragrant flowers from spring like forsythia, plum blossums, and daffodils graced Lord Gaurangas
nicely decorated altar.
We offered 111 different foodstuffs for the Lords pleasure. This included but was not
limited to- two dozen fortune cookies, gulab jamuns, 30 different types of burfy, Gauranga potatoes,
rice, various subjis, dried and fresh fruits, sweet rice, cawly and eggplant pakoras, three kinds
of chutney-well, you get the picture.

We began by offering arotik, then did the bhajan Parama Karuna, read the purport by
Srila Prabhupada, and then gave a short class on this song.

We next did Abhisek for three of our Deities, everybody took part bathing the
Lords in pancamrta substances. Then Anubhavananda read one of his poems.
Next was a very amusing play of puppets put on by Kanhaiya das and his kids.
The play,taken from Caitanya mangala, was about the episode in Vaikuntha between Lord Krsna and His queen Sri Rukmini devi along with Narada Muni, all of which precipitated the advent of
Gauranga, who was first seen at this time.

This was followed by– the FEAST !.

Afterwards, the devotees mingled for a bit, then we did some more kirtans, until
finally everyone had to leave for their respective ashrams. All things considered,
I think everyone had a lot of fun, and most importantly–this Hare Krsna Movement
as it was originally taught by Srila Prabhupada, is STILL going on, despite all that
happened in the past!!!

All glories to Srila Prabhupada and Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu,
the most merciful of all incarnations!!!

Damaghosa das/ Daria Devi dasi

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=80MMOK_Aa-4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=evZiSOEIg6g

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BBjS-tVxWYY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NRIbbeO4yTA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2hPF70vcoQI (Puppet show)

Is this a beautiful outfit or not?

From: Mahesh Raja

The bogus GBC want to play at being ACARYA who gives Diksa:

https://harekrsna.com/sun/news/03-13/news4734.htm

So here is what they give as evidence to somehow or other try JUSTIFY their claim to be Diksa Guru:

“This Krishna consciousness movement directly receives instructions from the Supreme Personality of Godhead via persons who are strictly following His instructions. Although a follower may not be a liberated person, if he follows the supreme, liberated Personality of Godhead, his actions are naturally liberated from the contamination of the material nature. Lord Caitanya therefore says: ‘By My order you may become a spiritual master.’ One can immediately become a spiritual master by having full faith in the transcendental words of the Supreme Personality of Godhead and by following His instructions.” Purport to SB 4.18.5
And…
“A person who is liberated acharya and guru cannot commit any mistake, but there are persons who are less qualified or not liberated, but still can act as guru and acharya by strictly following the disciplic succession.” Letter to Janardana, 26 April, 1968
And…
“We may not be cent percent perfect, but as far as possible, if we follow the instruction as it is, that much perfect. In this way one will get perfection. So one has to follow. The same example, try to understand, that a perfect, expert technologist or technician or mechanic is working, and somebody is working under his instruction. So this somebody, because he is strictly working under the instruction of the expert, he’s also expert. He may not be cent percent expert, but his work is expert. Is that clear? Because he is working under the expert. Do you follow? So if you follow pure devotee, then you are also pure devotee. It may not be one is cent percent pure. Because we are trying to raise ourself from the conditional life. But if we strictly follow the pure devotee, then we are also pure devotee. So far we do, that is pure. So pure devotee does not mean one has to become immediately cent percent pure. But if he sticks to the principle that “We’ll follow a pure devotee,” then his actions are… He is as good as a pure devotee. It is not I am explaining in my own way. It is the explanation of Bhagavata. Mahajano yena gatah sa panthah [Cc. Madhya 17.186].” Ref. VedaBase => Bhagavad-gita 2.1-10 and Talk — Los Angeles, November 25, 1968

Note: there is BIG DIFFERENCE between ACT AS ACARYA and BEING AN ACARYA.
ACT AS ACARYA simply means OFFICIATING ACARYA. Officiating Acarya IS Ritvik. So as per July 9th 1977 Order confirms that 1st and 2nd Initiations are to be conducted by OFFICIATING ACARYA(RITVIK -REPRESENTATIVE OF ACARYA Srila Prabhupada)

770528me.vrn Conversations
Prabhupada: Yes. I shall recommend some of you. After this is settled up, I shall recommend some of you to ACT AS OFFICIATING ACARYAS.
Tamala Krsna: Is that called rtvik-acarya?
Prabhupada: RTVIK, YES.

Note: OR HIS REPRESENTATIVE. The DUTIES are as per July 9th 1977 Ritvik Representative (Officiating Acarya) are DEFINED:
Madhya 24.330 The Sixty-One Explanations of the Atmarama Verse
Similarly, a disciple’s qualifications must be observed by the spiritual master before he is accepted as a disciple. In our Krsna consciousness movement, the requirement is that one must be prepared to give up the four pillars of sinful life-illicit sex, meat-eating, intoxication and gambling. In Western countries especially, we first observe whether a potential disciple is prepared to follow the regulative principles. Then he is given the name of a Vaisnava servant and initiated to chant the Hare Krsna maha-mantra, at least sixteen rounds daily. In this way the disciple renders devotional service under the guidance of the spiritual master OR HIS REPRESENTATIVE FOR at least six months to a year. He is then recommended for a second initiation, during which a sacred thread is offered and the disciple is accepted as a bona fide brahmana.

Note: Srila Prabhupada states indicates ACARYA is NOT a Kanistha. And ACARYA can NOT be appointed BY THE GBC:

74-04-28. Letter: Rupanuga
You are right about Sridhara Maharaja’s genuineness. But in my opinion he is the best of the lot. He is my old friend, at least he executes the regulative principles of devotional service. I do not wish to discuss about activities of my Godbrothers but it is a fact they have no life for preaching work. All are satisfied with a place for residence in the name of a temple, they engage disciples to get foodstuff by transcendental devices and eat and sleep. They have no idea or brain how to broacast the cult of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu. My Guru Maharaja used to lament many times for this reason and he thought if one man at least had understood the principle of preaching then his mission would achieve success. In the latter days of my Guru Maharaja he was very disgusted. Actually, he left this world earlier, otherwise he would have continued to live for more years. Still he requested his disciples to form a strong Governing body for preaching the cult of Caitanya Mahaprabhu. HE NEVER RECOMMENDED ANYONE TO BE ACARYA OF THE GAUDIYA MATH. BUT SRIDHARA MAHARAJA IS RESPONSIBLE FOR DISOBEYING THIS ORDER OF GURU MAHARAJA, AND HE AND OTHERS WHO ARE ALREADY DEAD UNNECESSARILY THOUGHT THAT THERE MUST BE ONE ACARYA. IF GURU MAHARAJA COULD HAVE SEEN SOMEONE WHO WAS QUALIFIED AT THAT TIME TO BE ACARYA HE WOULD HAVE MENTIONED. BECAUSE ON THE NIGHT BEFORE HE PASSED AWAY HE TALKED OF SO MANY THINGS, BUT NEVER MENTIONED AN ACARYA. HIS IDEA WAS ACARYA WAS NOT TO BE NOMINATED AMONGST THE GOVERNING BODY. HE SAID OPENLY YOU MAKE A GBC AND CONDUCT THE MISSION. SO HIS IDEA WAS AMONGST THE MEMBERS OF GBC WHO WOULD COME OUT SUCCESSFUL AND SELF EFFULGENT ACARYA WOULD BE AUTOMATICALLY SELECTED. SO SRIDHARA MAHARAJA AND HIS TWO ASSOCIATE GENTLEMEN UNAUTHORIZEDLY SELECTED ONE ACARYA AND LATER IT PROVED A FAILURE. THE RESULT IS NOW EVERYONE IS CLAIMING TO BE ACARYA EVEN THOUGH THEY MAY BE KANISTHA ADHIKARI WITH NO ABILITY TO PREACH. IN SOME OF THE CAMPS THE ACARYA IS BEING CHANGED THREE TIMES A YEAR. THEREFORE WE MAY NOT COMMIT THE SAME MISTAKE IN OUR ISKCON CAMP. ACTUALLY AMONGST MY GODBROTHERS NO ONE IS QUALIFIED TO BECOME ACARYA. So it is better not to mix with my Godbrothers very intimately because instead of inspiring our students and disciples they may sometimes pollute them.

Note: Although one can ACT AS OFFICIATING ACARYA in a NON-liberated platform they CAN NOT give DIKSA. This is WHY 1st and 2nd initiations are done ON BEHALF of Srila Prabhupada the LIBERATED ACARYA. THROUGHOUT the process of DIKSA the INITIATOR is ONE : Srila Prabhupada

Note:There may be many spiritual masters who instruct, but the INITIATOR spiritual master is ONE.
KB 80 The Meeting of Lord Krsna with Sudama Brahmana
Our next spiritual master is he who initiates us into transcendental knowledge, and he is to be worshiped as much as I am. The spiritual master may be more than one. The spiritual master who instructs the disciples about spiritual matters is called siksa-guru, and the spiritual master who initiates the disciple is called diksa-guru. Both of them are My representatives. There may be many spiritual masters who instruct, but the initiator spiritual master is one.

Note: NON-liberated OFFICIATING ACARYA can NOT transfer into YOUR heart Krsna. However DIKSA requires for Krsna to be TRANSFERED TO YOUR HEART in order that YOUR RELATIONSHIP (SVARUPA) is REVEALED: this has been explained in detail:

Reply to Nimai Pandit Prabhu and Rocana das
https://www.prabhupadanugas.eu/?p=33002#comment-16956

Note: When Krsna is TRANSFERRED FROM Pure devotees(Srila Prabhupada) HEART to another Pure devotee then there is DIKSA. Divya jnana revelation of ones CONSTITUTIONAL positon Svarupa is UNDERSTOOD. This may take many many many births — NOT so cheap.
SB 10.2.18 P Prayers by the Demigods for Lord Krsna in the Womb
As indicated here by the word manastah, the Supreme Personality of Godhead was transferred from the core of Vasudeva’s mind or heart to the core of the heart of Devaki. WE SHOULD NOTE CAREFULLY THAT THE LORD WAS TRANSFERRED TO DEVAKI NOT BY THE ORDINARY WAY FOR A HUMAN BEING, BUT BY DIKSA, INITIATION. THUS THE IMPORTANCE OF INITIATION IS MENTIONED HERE. UNLESS ONE IS INITIATED BY THE RIGHT PERSON, WHO ALWAYS CARRIES WITHIN HIS HEART THE SUPREME PERSONALITY OF GODHEAD, ONE CANNOT ACQUIRE THE POWER TO CARRY THE SUPREME GODHEAD WITHIN THE CORE OF ONE’S OWN HEART.

Divya-jnana means : Divya TRANSCENDENTAL and Jnana means KNOWLEDGE
So UNLESS one is on TRANSCENDENTAL PLATFORM means Uttama Adhikari (Maha Bhagavata) there can NOT be any question of Transcendental Knowledge of ones CONSTITUTIONAL POSITION coming FROM him. THIS EFFECTIVLY DISQUALIFIES KANISTHA AND MADHYAM (MIDDLE STAGE) FROM GIVING DIKSA — AUTOMATICALLY.
Hrde means heart and Prokasito means revealed just as in prakasa – manifested Krsna becomes manifest in the heart of the Pure Devotee.

760711CC.NY Lectures
Prabhupada: Divya-jnana hrde prokasito. What is that divya-jnana? Divya-jnana is that we are all servant of Krsna, and our only business is to serve Krsna. Divya-jnana. This is divya-jnana. It is not difficult at all. Simply we have… We have become servant of so many things–servant of society, servant of community, servant of country, servant of wife, servant of children, servant of dog and so many. “Now let me become servant of Krsna.” This is divya-jnana. Diksa. Diksa means from this divya-jnana. That is di. And ksa means ksapayati, expands.
When at the stage of Madhyama Adhikari one is RECEPIENT of THAT Diksa in the HEART from SRILA PRABHUPADA he becomes a SERVANT OF KRSNA. He relishes a particular mellow (Rasa) of his relationship with Krsna. This point HE SEES KRSNA and HIS RELATIONSHIP (svarupa) is established. So it is not so CHEAP to be Diksa guru.

Madhya 8.83 Talks Between Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu and Ramananda Raya
The purport in presenting this verse necessitates explaining the comparative positions of the transcendental mellows known as santa, dasya, sakhya, vatsalya and madhurya. All these rasas, or mellows, are situated on the transcendental platform. Pure devotees take shelter of one of them and thus progress in spiritual life. Actually one can take shelter of such spiritual mellows only when one is completely uncontaminated by material attachment. When one is completely free from material attachment, the feelings of the transcendental mellows are awakened in the heart of the devotee. That is svarupa-siddhi, the perfection of one’s eternal relationship with the Supreme Lord. Svarupa-siddhi, the eternal relationship with the Supreme Lord, may be situated in one of the transcendental mellows.

SB 9/4/63 TEXT 63
TEXT
Translation
The Supreme Personality of Godhead said to the brahmana: I am completely under the control of My devotees. Indeed, I am not at all independent. Because My devotees are completely devoid of material desires, I sit only within the cores of their hearts. What to speak of My devotee, even those who are devotees of My devotee are very dear to Me.

PURPORT

All the great stalwart personalities in the universe, including Lord Brahma and Lord Siva, are fully under the control of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, but the Supreme Personality of Godhead is fully under the control of His devotee. Why is this? Because the devotee is anyabhilasita-sunya; in other words, he has no material desires in his heart. His only desire is to think always of the Supreme Personality of Godhead and how to serve Him best. Because of this transcendental qualification, the Supreme Lord is extremely favorable to the devotees—indeed, not only the devotees, but also the devotees of the devotees. Srila Narottama dasa Thakura says, chadiya vaisnava-seva nistara payeche keba: without being a devotee of a devotee, one cannot be released from material entanglement.

Therefore Caitanya Mahaprabhu identified Himself as gopi-bhartuh pada-kamalayor dasa-dasanudasah. Thus he instructed us to become not directly servants of Krsna but servants of the servant of Krsna. Devotees like Brahma, Narada, Vyasadeva and Sukadeva Gosvami are directly servants of Krsna, and one who becomes a servant of Narada, Vyasadeva and Sukadeva, like the six Gosvamis, is still more devoted. Srila Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura therefore says, yasya prasadad bhagavat-prasadah: ** if one very sincerely serves the spiritual master, Krsna certainly becomes favorable to such a devotee.FOLLOWING THE INSTRUCTIONS OF A DEVOTEE IS MORE VALUABLE THAN FOLLOWING THE INSTRUCTIONS OF THE SUPREME PERSONALITY OF GODHEAD DIRECTLY.

ACCEPTING THE LINE OF DISCIPLIC SUCCESSION

from www.krishnapath.org

“Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu is none other than the combined form of Sri Radha and Krsna. He is the life of those devotees who strictly follow in the footsteps of Srila Rupa Gosvami. Srila Rupa Gosvami and Srila Sanatana Gosvami are the two principal followers of Srila Svarupa Damodara Gosvami, who acted as the most confidential servitor of Lord Sri Krsna Caitanya Mahaprabhu, known as Visvambhara in His early life. A direct disciple of Srila Rupa Gosvami was Srila Raghunatha dasa Gosvami. The author of Sri Caitanya-caritamrta, Srila Krsnadasa Kaviraja Gosvami, stands as the direct disciple of Srila Rupa Gosvami and Srila Raghunatha dasa Gosvami.

The direct disciple of Srila Krsnadasa Kaviraja Gosvami was Srila Narottama dasa Thakura, who accepted Srila Visvanatha Cakravarti as his servitor. Srila Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura accepted Srila Jagannatha dasa Babaji, who initiated Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura, who in turn initiated Srila Gaurakisora dasa Babaji, the spiritual master of Om Visnupada Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Gosvami Maharaja, the divine master of our humble self…. The subject matter of this book is not a mental concoction but a factual spiritual experience that one can realize only by accepting the line of disciplic succession described above. Any deviation from that line will bewilder the reader’s understanding of the mystery of Sri Caitanya-caritamrta, which is a transcendental literature meant for the postgraduate study of one who has realized all the Vedic scriptures such as the Upanisads and Vedanta-sutra and their natural commentaries such as Srimad-Bhagavatam and the Bhagavad-gita.”
(From the Caitanya Caritamrita Adi-Lila Chapter 1 [authorized 1975 edition]: The Spiritual Masters)

It is very interesting to note that the above disciplic succession referred to here has nothing to do with the formalities of Initiation as it is known in modern ISKCON today. It is referring to the authorized disciplic Succession based on the transfer of realization from one devotee to another. Not the formalities of who chants on ones beads, gives a name or performs a formal fire Yajna, where the initiate makes his vows before the sacred fire and deity. In fact, often case, such as with Narottama dasa Thakura and Visvanatha Cakravarti they never even met! So there is no possibility for there to have been a formal ceremony between them. Furthermore, Narottama underwent the formalities with Lokanatha not Krsnadasa.

Narottama appeared sometime in 1531 (exact date is unknown). His disciple was Ganga Narayana Cakravarti. Ganga Narayana’s disciple was Krishna Carana Cakravarti. Krishna Carana’s disciple was Radha Ramana Cakravarti, the formal guru of Visvanatha Cakravarti.

The exact year of Visvanatha’s birth is unknown. It is estimated to be somewhere between 1620-1640. He departed in 1708. So obviously due to the century difference between them they never even met. But Srila Prabhupada says that we get a “factual spiritual experience that one can realize only by accepting the line of disciplic succession described above.

This means that the way to have a factual spiritual experience is by hearing from the realized masters like Srila Prabhupada even if they are not physically present. It has nothing to do with the person that formally performs our initiation ceremony. It is a matter of what great personality (physically present or not) we are associating with through either meditation, service or hearing. Hearing can mean reading or hearing about him from a transparent source. But the connection or as Srila Prabhupada calls it “disciplic succession” is not based on formalities or physical presence. We also notice this in Srila Prabhupada’s introduction to the Bhagavad Gita this same conclusion is there. That disciplic succession is also not based on the person that performs ones initiation ritual. Thus the person performing the formalities of initiation chanting on beads and choosing a name is not the real spiritual connection. The disciplic succession is the person that we get our real transcendental wisdom from by reading there books or hearing their lectures etc (weather we have physically met them or not).

So if we are reading Srila Prabhupada’s books then Srila Prabhupada is our spiritual master.
(Please see the quotes at the end of this article for more information in this regard.)

It is even more interesting to notice that Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura rejected his initiating guru Bipin Bihari Goswami due to a philosophical dispute. Later in a public meeting/debate of all the sadhus, to Bhaktivinoda’s great pleasure, his son, Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Gosvami defeated Bipin Bihari Goswami. As a result we do not see his name in the disciplic succession.

So we must just catch the feet of the most recent topmost devotee Uttama-Adhikari and Acharya weather we are formally initiated by him or not. This is the process that Srila Prabhupada has instructed us to follow and even warns us that any deviation from this will bewilder us.

So we are so fortunate to have all Srila Prabhupada’s books, recorded audio and even hundreds of hours of free video’s for our spiritual growth. We must simply take advantage of this process of taking direct shelter of Srila Prabhupada for this is the disciplic succession that Srila Prabhupada has recommended above.

Here at Krishna Path we are very happy to offer you so much of Srila Prabhupada’s original authorized unadulterated books audio art etc for free. Please take full advantage of it and read and chant every day!

We are also in the process of redesigning Krishnapath.org so you can have a more enjoyable user-friendly experience. The new website should be launched in a month or so. So stay tuned.

Hare Krishna!

_______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

So there is nothing to be said new. Whatever I have to speak, I have spoken in my books. Now you try to understand it and continue your endeavor. Whether I am present or not present, it doesn’t matter.
(Arrival Speech – May 17, 1977, Vrndavana)

If I depart, there is no cause for lamentation. I will always be with you through my books and my orders. I will always remain with you in that way.”
(Back To Godhead vol.13 01/02, 1978)

Indian lady: Can the death of a spiritual master take to us, or I can get… Is that spiritual master still guiding after the death? (?)
Prabhupada: Yes, yes. Just like Krsna is guiding us, similarly, spiritual master will guide. We are being guided by Krsna, by the Bhagavad-gita. Although Krsna is not physically present, so-called… Krsna is present always. But even if we say that Krsna is not physically present as He was present before Arjuna, still, His book, Bhagavad-gita, is there.
(His Divine Grace Srila Sac-cid-ananda Bhaktivinoda Thakura’s Appearance Day, Lecture — London, September 3, 1971)

Indian Man(2): …like your company very much in Toronto and we feel like talk you so much, but we don’t have so much time to talk with you. You have so much mercy, so we have not… know so much about Krsna from you.
Prabhupada: So in my absence you read the books. What I talk, I have written in the books. That’s all.
Indian Man (2): Personally, we think more greater.
Prabhupada: That’s all right. But still, you can associate with me by reading my books.
(Morning Walk — August 7, 1975, Toronto)

Prajapati: In the Bhagavad-gita it is indicated by Sri Krsna that when we approach a bona fide spiritual master our relationship is twofold. We render service and then we also make inquiry.
Prabhupada: Yeah.
Prajapati: Now, you have answered all our inquiries so thoroughly in our books that to make inquiry at this point seems like…, you’ve already answered all the questions. So how may we… What is the proper relationship at that point to make inquiry?
Devotee (4): Read the books.
Prabhupada: Yes. Read the books, yes. Why I’m working so hard? Read the books. [break]
(Morning Walk – January 5, 1974, Los Angeles)

Lord Brahma heard the occult sound tapa, but he did not see the person who vibrated the sound. And still he accepted the instruction as beneficial for him, and therefore he engaged himself in meditation for one thousand celestial years. One celestial year is equal to 6 x 30 x 12 x 1000 of our years. His acceptance of the sound was due to his pure vision of the absolute nature of the Lord. And due to his correct vision, he made no distinction between the Lord and the Lord’s instruction. There is no difference between the Lord and sound vibration coming from Him, even though He is not personally present. The best way of understanding is to accept such divine instruction, and Brahma, the prime spiritual master of everyone, is the living example of this process of receiving transcendental knowledge. The potency of transcendental sound is never minimized because the vibrator is apparently absent. Therefore Srimad-Bhagavatam or Bhagavad-gita or any revealed scripture in the world is never to be accepted as an ordinary mundane sound without transcendental potency.
(SB 2.9.8)

one has to associate with liberated persons not directly, physically, but by understanding, through philosophy and logic, the problems of life.
(SB 3.31.48)

I have instructed everything in my books.
(Letter to: Dina Dayala Mayapur 76-02-25)

Interviewer: You are the translator of many books, from what I understand.
Prabhupada: Yes. So that translation, the book, will speak how I have translated.
Interviewer: Um hm. I was wondering…
Prabhupada: You read the books, Then you’ll understand. Instead of asking me, you better read the books. That is real understanding.
(Interview with Newsweek – July 14, 1976, New York)

In my books the philosophy of Krishna Consciousness is explained fully so if there is anything which you do not understand, then you simply have to read again and again. By reading daily the knowledge will be revealed to you and by this process your spiritual life will develop. Krishna Consciousness is not a hackneyed thing but it is something which is our natural and original consciousness. Presently our consciousness is clouded just like a mirror becomes covered with dust So the cleansing process is this chanting and hearing and doing some service and trying to please the Spiritual Master. By this process our consciousness becomes clear and we are able to understand everything.
(Letter to: Bahurupa – Bombay 22 November, 1974)

Every one of you must regularly read our books at least twice — in the morning and evening, and automatically all questions will be answered.
(Letter to: Ranadhira – Los Angeles 24 January, 1970)

So utilize whatever time you find to make a thorough study of my books. Then all your questions will be answered.
(Letter to: Upendra – Nellore 7 January, 1976)

Reporter (2): What will happen to the movement in the United States when you die?
Prabhupada: I will never die.
Devotees: Jaya! Hari bol! (laughter)
Prabhupada: I shall live for my books, and you will utilize.
(Press Conference – July 16, 1975, San Francisco)

The merciful Lord left behind Him the great teachings of the Bhagavad-gita so that one can take the instructions of the Lord even when He is not visible to material eyesight. Material senses cannot have any estimation of the Supreme Lord, but by His inconceivable power the Lord can incarnate Himself to the sense perception of the conditioned souls in a suitable manner through the agency of matter, which is also another form of the Lord’s manifested energy. Thus the Bhagavad-gita, or any authentic scriptural sound representation of the Lord, is also the incarnation of the Lord. There is no difference between the sound representation of the Lord and the Lord Himself. One can derive the same benefit from the Bhagavad-gita as Arjuna did in the personal presence of the Lord.
(SB 1.15.27)

One who can see Srimad-Bhagavatam can see also Lord Sri Krsna in person. They are identical.
(SB 1.3.43)

arcye sila-dhir gurusu na… Gurusu means those who are acaryas, to accept their body as ordinary man’s body, this is denied in the sastras. So although a physical body is not present, the vibration should be accepted as the presence of the spiritual master, vibration. What we have heard from the spiritual master, that is living.
(Lecture Excerpt – Los Angeles, January 13, 1969)

“This is Caitanya Mahāprabhu’s mission. He says, “You become a spiritual master.” “How? I have no qualification.” “No. You just accept my order?” “So what is your order, sir?” Yāre dekha, tāre kaha ‘kṛṣṇa’-upadeśa: [Cc. Madhya 7.128] “You simply speak the instruction of Kṛṣṇa whoever you meet. Then you become a spiritual master.” (Lecture on Bhagavad-gita 4.15 — Bombay, April 4, 1974)

Therefore Caitanya Mahāprabhu says, āmāra ājñāya guru haya tāra sarva- deśa, tāra ei deśa [Cc. Madhya 7.128]. He’s asking everyone to become a spiritual master. So how everyone can become a spiritual master? A spiritual master must have sufficient knowledge, so many other qualifications. No. Even without any qualifications, one can become a spiritual master. How? Now the process is, Caitanya Mahāprabhu says, āmāra ājñāya: “On My order.” That is the crucial point. One does not become spiritual master by his own whims. That is not spiritual master. He must be ordered by superior authority. Then he’s spiritual master. Āmāra ājñāya. Just like in our case. Our superior authority, our spiritual master, he ordered me that “You just try to preach this gospel, whatever you have learned from me, in English.” So we have tried it. That’s all. It is not that I am very much qualified. The only qualification is that I have tried to execute the order of superior authority. That’s all. This is the secret of success. (Lecture on Bhagavad-gita 2.2 — London, August 3, 1973)

Antya 6.312 – TRANSLATION: He never touched anything to wear except a small torn cloth and a patchwork wrapper. Thus he very rigidly executed the order of Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu. PURPORT: The principle of very rigidly carrying out the order of the spiritual master must be observed. The spiritual master gives different orders to different people. For example, Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu ordered Jīva Gosvāmī, Rūpa Gosvāmī and Sanātana Gosvāmī to preach, and He ordered Raghunātha dāsa Gosvāmī to strictly follow the rules and regulations of the renounced order. All six Gosvāmīs strictly followed the instructions of Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu. This is the principle for progress in devotional service. After receiving an order from the spiritual master, one must strictly try to execute the order. That is the way of success.
Is there anyone out there in Iskcon who was EVER specifically ordered by Srila Prabhupada to become an INITIATING spiritual master and accept disciples on their own behalf?

I have seen no such evidence. The only orders I have ever seen were to become instructor spiritual masters by preaching and instructing “exactly” as Srila Prabhupada instructed. There is an incredibly broad latitude for becoming Instructing Spiritual master. NOT SO FOR DIKSA GURU.

Regarding your question about the husband becoming the Spiritual Master of the wife, anyone who can give instructing in spiritual life is treated as Spiritual Master. There are two kinds of Spiritual Master, initiator and instructor. So the husband can help the wife as instructor. (Letter to: Himavati — Los Angeles 24 January, 1969)

“To answer your last point, one who teaches can be treated as Spiritual Master. It is not that after we become initiated we become perfect. No. It requires teaching. So if we take instruction from them, all senior godbrothers may be treated as guru, there is no harm. Actually, you have only one Spiritual Master, who initiates you, just as you have only one father. But every Vaisnava should be treated as prabhu, master, higher than me, and in this sense, if I learn from him, he may be regarded as guru. It is not that I disobey my real Spiritual Master and call someone else as Spiritual Master. That is wrong. It is only that I can call Spiritual Master someone who is teaching me purely what my initiating Spiritual Master has taught. Do you get the sense?” (Letter to: Sri Galim — Delhi 20 November, 1971)

“Śikṣā-guru does not mean he is speaking something against the teachings of the dīkṣā-guru. He is not a śikṣā-guru. He is a rascal.” (Bhagavad-gita 17.1-3 — Honolulu, July 4, 1974)

The GBC should all be the instructor gurus. I am in the initiator guru, and you should be the instructor guru by teaching what I am teaching and doing what I am doing. This is not a title, but you must actually come to this platform. This I want. (Letter to: Madhudvisa: — Detroit 4 August, 1975)

AS A MATTER OF FACT, THE DIKSA GURU OR INITIATING SPIRITUAL MASTER IS MEANT TO BE A MAHA BHAGAVATA, WORSHIPPED AS GOOD AS GOD. In ISKCON we were instructed that was to include the following
1. Obeisances offered to the Initiating Spiritual Master via PERSONAL Pranama Mantra 2. Worship of that Diksa Guru on Vyasa Puja celebration 3. Daily special Guru Puja to that Diksa Guru 4. Worship of that Diksa Guru’s Murti or Picture on the same level as Deity worship.

“When one has attained the topmost position of mahä-bhägavata, he is to be accepted as a guru and worshiped exactly like Hari, the Personality of Godhead. Only such a person is eligible to occupy the post of a guru.” (Caitanya-caritamrta Madhya 24.330)
Srila Prabhupada: “One who has got this divya-jñāna, vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti sa mahātmā, that is mahātmā. But that is very, very rare. Otherwise, mahātmā LIKE ME, they are loitering in the street. That is. So you should always remember this word, divya-jñāna hṛde prakāśito. And because the spiritual master enlightens the divya-jñāna, one feels obliged to him. Yasya prasādād bhagavat-prasādo yasya prasādān na gatiḥ kuto ‘pi **. *So this guru-pūjā essential.* *As the Deity worship essential*… It is not cheap adoration. It is the process of enlightening the divya-jñāna.** (Lecture — Bombay, April 1, 1977)

My dear Karandhara, Please accept my blessings. I beg to thank you for your letter dated January 21st, 1976. The photos of my murti are very nice. The murti of the Spiritual Master should be treated as good as the Deity. Saksad-dharitvena samasta-sastrair, uktas tatha bhavyata eva sadbhih/kintu prabhor yah priya eva tasya **, The guru should be treated as good as God. This is stated in all the sastras. The difference is that God is master-God and guru is servant-God. So the installation ceremony for such a murti should be similar to that done for other Deities. All Temples can have this Deity if they like. But Temples which have only Panca-tattva painting worship should not be given this Deity. You should make a murti of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati and then they may be worshiped together as is now being done in our Krishna Balarama Temple. They should be placed with Gaura Nitai—Guru Gauranga. (Letter to: Karandhara — Mayapur 29 January, 1976)

Please accept my blessings. I have received your letter dated Jan. 3rd and have noted the contents. It is nice that you are enthusiastically engaged in New York. I have no objection to your worshiping my murti for Guru Puja. But for placing in the temple there must be a pair of murtis, (my Guru Maharaja must be there) as in Krsna-Balarama Mandir, and they must be permanently installed. This may be done in accord with the temple authorities. Or else you may worship one murti of myself privately in your room. (Letter to: Sudama — Allahabad 13 January, 1977)

And if that isn’t obvious enough for you brainiacs, how about the fact that IF INDEED ALL THE DEVOTEES “GIVING DIKSA” IN ISKCON WERE MAHABHAGAVATAS CAPABLE OF BEING INITIATING SPIRITUAL MASTERS, THE GBC WOULD BE IN THE DEFAULT POSITION OF APARADHIS ACCORDING TO SRILA RUPA GOSWAMI.

Prabhupada “It is also an offense to consider an empowered Vaiṣṇava an object of disciplinary action. It is offensive to try to give him advice or to correct him. One can distinguish between a neophyte Vaiṣṇava and an advanced Vaiṣṇava by their activities. The advanced Vaiṣṇava is always situated as the spiritual master, and the neophyte is always considered his disciple. The spiritual master must not be subjected to the advice of a disciple, nor should a spiritual master be obliged to take instructions from those who are not his disciples. This is the sum and substance of Śrīla Rūpa Gosvāmī’s advice in the sixth verse.” NOI 6

————————————————————————–
Sorry kids. NO MORE DIKSA GURUS NEEDED IN ISKCON TEMPLES.
Why don’t all you neophytes who can’t live a moment without being worshiped and cannot accept the humble position of a priest, simply take all your disciples out of Srila Prabhupada’s temples and start your own, write your own god-damned books, show us how wonderful and glorious you really are?

Leave Iskcon’s properties of all forms to those devotees who actually want to live according to the rules and regulations set down by the Founder. Then in the future you are always welcome to apply for affiliation to Iskcon. But why would you want to? After all since you are such glorious MahaBhagavatas, by that time your asramas will have surpassed Iskcon by leaps and bounds!

Hare Krsna to all

Pranams

All glories to Prabhupada

We sent out an email recently by Bhaktivinode Thakur , detailing the conditions upon which the soul enters this world and therefore material consciousness. This began with the threadlike false ego, then intelligence, then mind, and finally the other senses so that eventually one is fully in the bodily or material concept of life.

In this conversation with Srila Prabhupada , he tells us how one individual soul co-inhabits and controls one body in the midst of millions of other souls in various cells.

He also describes how we can only act with our senses if “conditions” are favorable for them to act. Example-the eyes need light to work-that is a condition, and similarly for all the other senses. So our entire existence within this body is conditional upon other things. This means we are not free to do anything, without higher sanction. And the more we become free of these “conditions” the more we can approach that which is “Truth”-or, reality distinguished from illusion.

In the next talk Srila Prabhupada explains non conditioned life-spiritual life in the spiritual world and how so many souls can live within different forms of life, like flowers, trees, plants water, earth, etc and serve Krsna in that way.

Hari bol

Damaghosa das

—————————-

740714mw.la Conversations
Svarupa Damodara: We were discussing that in all the living bodies, we have these innumerable cells, living cells. And in these cells… We were just discussing whether the Paramatma and the jivatma is still there even in the living cells. Prabhupada: Yes. Yes. Svarupa Damodara: It is. It is there. So actually our body’s a combination of these so many living entities. Prabhupada: Atoms, yes. Why not? The every living entity is one ten-thousandth part of the tip of a hair. So many hairs are there. And that is one ten-thousandth part of the top of the hair. Where is the difficulty.
Bali Mardana: So there is one jivatma who’s in control of the body. The others are subservient.
Prabhupada: Yes. Jivatma is everywhere. But you have got your own field. Just like for agricultural purpose you have got a big field, but there are so many millions of microbes and…
Bali Mardana: Yes.
Prabhupada: But it is your field. Not that when you go out of the field one of them becomes you. No, that is not. That is individuality. When you leave, you leave your field. That’s all.

Bali Mardana: So when we leave the field, then the other cells in the body also leave their field.
Prabhupada: Yes, therefore the germs come out as soon as it is proper time. So these nonsense, they do not know that, that the… Creating life, the ingredients… If they say that material combination makes life, so material combination is there already. Why the, that man is not coming? That is… He’s individual, and they are also individual. I have got my field. I am individual. I leave it. But because there are so many other microbes, they will come as me. No, that is not possible.
Svarupa Damodara: Yes, yes, but temporarily, I cannot live without them.
Prabhupada: Eh?
Svarupa Damodara: I cannot live in my body without them.

Prabhupada: Without them… You cannot live with this material body without so many conditions. And that is also one of the conditions. You cannot live. Any condition, little disturbed… You become diseased; you become disturbed. So therefore it is called conditional life. You simply live here on condition. And spiritual life means nocondition. If the condition is favorable, then your senses will act. Otherwise you have got useless senses. If there is light, then you can see. You can become proud of your eyes. “Can you show me God?” And what you can see, rascal? If God gives you light, then you can see. You see under condition. And still, he’s very proud of his eyes. “Can you show me God?” This is going on. Rascal, what you can see? So we are conditioned. And still, we are searching out the truth. What is your truth? You are conditioned.
Bali Mardana: So they only end up with a conditioned truth, a relative truth.
Prabhupada: Yes. The more you are not conditioned, the more your finding out truth is perfect. But it is not possible for you to become completely unconditioned. That is not possible. That is mukta purusa, liberated. Therefore we have to take knowledge from the person who is not conditioned. That is perfect knowledge. And one who is conditioned, what is the value of his giving knowledge? So therefore we don’t accept any knowledge from the conditioned souls. Conditioned soul is imperfect by the four deficiencies. Bhrama, pramada… He must commit mistake. So what is the value of his knowledge? There is no value. We take knowledge from the Supreme Personality of Godhead, who is unconditioned. There is a verse in the Srimad-Bhagavata: esad isanam isasya. That is God. God means He becomes, He comes within this material world, but He’s not conditioned. That is Krsna.
Bali Mardana: And His representative.
Prabhupada: Yes. The whole thing is managed by the law of gravitation, but when Krsna lifted the hill, there was no weight. He’s not conditioned by the law of gravity. He can lift up. We cannot do because we are conditioned. And when they cannot understand God’s inconceivable power, they think it is all mythology. Because he is a rascal, he thinks Krsna also rascal.
Bali Mardana: They try to put Krsna within the framework of their own…
Prabhupada: Yes. Avajananti mam mudha manusim tanum asritam. Because Krsna is kindly become visible to our eyes, these rascals immediately take Him as one of us. By His kindness He’s coming to be visible by us, to listen Him, His instructions, but these mudhas will take Him as ordinary human being. Mudha nabhijanati mam ebhyah param avyayam.
Svarupa Damodara: So the consciousness, my consciousness… The consciousness of those living cells are dependent on my consciousness.
Prabhupada: No, that consciousness is not developed. It is not equal to your consciousness. Just like a child’s consciousness is not equal to your consciousness because he’s not yet developed, similarly, this human life is the full-fledged… Not full-fledged. Almost full demonstration of consciousness. We have to utilize it for higher understanding. From material conditions, the consciousness develops. On account of loss of consciousness, they become godless. So it
requires time. So this Hare Krsna movement is to help them to develop consciousness very quickly. Yes. Otherwise, it will take millions of years. Manusyanam sahasresu kascit yatati siddhaye. We are helping
people to develop that original consciousness very quickly. (break)

—————–

750520SB.MEL Lectures
Devotee (1): Srila Prabhupada, you were saying that because the body has arms and legs, then the coat has a similar shape. Then does the spirit soul that’s within our body have arms and legs like that?
Prabhupada: Yes.
Devotee (1): Would the spirit soul that is within, say, a cow’s body,
is in a different shape?
Prabhupada: Yes. It has got also legs. But the shape has taken according to his desire. Every animal has got these four things. Just like bird, it has got two wings, two legs. The animal has got four legs. And the man has got two hands, two legs. So the same parts of the body, they are appearing in a different type. But the four limbs of the body are there. Hm?
Devotee (2): Is the original body of the spirit soul a human form?
Madhudvisa: The question is that whether the eternal form of the
spirit soul is a human form or is it…
Prabhupada: Yes, human form. God is also human form. “Man is made after the shape of God.” I think there is in the Bible. Is it not? So God is also like human form. Here you see Krsna, two hands, two legs.

Hari-sauri: How do we understand, then, that there are peacocks and flowers and trees in the spiritual world? Are these not eternal forms?

Prabhupada: Yes. They are more covered. Just like if you cover your body with blanket, the hands and legs are invisible. But you are not
the blanket. So the trees and plants, they are more covered. They are not in full manifestation. The human form is the full manifestation of the soul.
Hari-sauri: They are covered in the spiritual world?
Madhudvisa: He is asking if they were actually covered in the
spiritual world as well.
Prabhupada: Not in the spiritual world. There that is voluntary. Some devotee wants to serve Krsna as flower; they become flower there. If I want that “As a flower I shall lie down at the lotus feet of Krsna,”
he becomes flower, voluntarily. And he can change his…, from flowerto human body. That is spiritual life. There is no restriction. If some devotee wants to serve Krsna as cow, he serves Krsna as cow, as calf, as flower, as plant, as water, as ground, field, or as father, as mother, as friend, as beloved, anything. Ye yatha mam prapadyante tams tathaiva bhajamy aham. That is Krsna’s all-powerfulness, spiritual life.

Recently I saw on the internet a discussion wherein an Iskcon “guru” was disputing a purport found in one of Srila Prabhupada’s original, authorized editions of Sri Caitanya-caritamrta. This sannyasi has determined that this often quoted book purport is wrong. He apparently made this determination based on his great erudition and knowledge of Bengali. He contends that his study of the Bengali purports of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati (purports Srila Prabhupada has based his own purports upon) has revealed that the book version is incorrect, even though Srila Prabhupada was highly pleased with these publications and read and lectured from them many times.

The original version found in the book is as follows: One should not try to be an artificially advanced devotee, thinking, “I am a first-class. devotee.” Such thinking should be avoided. It is best not to accept any disciples. (Caitanya-caritamrta, Madhya 7.130, Purport.) The swami says this purport should read: One should not try to be an artificially advanced devotee, thinking, “I am a first-class devotee, so it is best not to accept any disciples.” Such thinking should be avoided.

I am not a Bengali scholar and have not studied Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati’s purports to this verse, but I do know English fairly well and have carefully studied all of Srila Prabhupada’s books in English. The version found in the book is consistent with the siddhanta found throughout Srila Prabhupada’s books. The version of the swami, however, contradicts siddhanta. There is significant difference in meaning between these two versions.

The first version cited above, as found in the authorized books, is clear. It says devotees should not think of themselves to be paramahamsas simply because, as Damaghosa mentions, they may have been following the basic regulative principles and chanting the minimum of 16 rounds for a few years. Such following is the qualification for being a disciple, not a guru. Srila Prabhupada concludes his statement above, clearly saying, “It is best not to accept any disciples.” Throughout Srila Prabhupada’s books the emphasis is on the strict sadhana required to become a bona fide disciple. Srila Prabhupada never ordered, authorized or suggested ecclesiastical arrangements for electing “gurus”. Nor did he suggest one should adopt the office and status of spiritual master on his own initiative, without full authorization and realization.

Unfortunately, most of us modern men are sloppy readers and writers, as is seen constantly in legislative assemblies, newspapers, magazines, and even scholarly journals. Most experienced English teachers and editors will agree on this point. Srila Prabhupada’s original books have been carefully proofed by qualified editors. The standard is high, with very few, if any, glaring errors that severely distort the intended meaning. English is a complex and precise language in word definitions, grammar and structure, but sadly it is often misused, miswritten or misunderstood by sloppy readers and writers, the poorly educated, and those with ulterior motives, such as lawyers and politicians. Srila Prabhupada, on the other hand, had perfect command of the English language, particularly in writing. He required no editors; yet by his causeless mercy he engaged qualified disciples in this service.

The swami’s version of this purport perverts the meaning drastically. He puts Srila Prabhupada’s statement “It is best not to accept any disciples” within the quotation marks that Prabhupada uses to illustrate the type of thinking that should be avoided. In other words, the swami’s version says, “One should not think himself too exalted to take on the botherations involved in accepting disciples.” The book version, on the other hand, shows no quotation marks on the statement “It is best not to accept disciples.” This statement appears as Srila Prabhupada’s clear warning that one should not become a spiritual master on his own initiative, without specific authorization, full realization and empowerment from Sri Guru and Gauranga. (Although for most devotees it may be best to not accept any disciples, Krishna of course sometimes orders His pure devotees to descend to the material world to do so.)

Throughout Srila Prabhupada’s books he has repeatedly cited evidence that shows only a first-class devotee is qualified to become a genuine spiritual master and deliverer of fallen conditioned souls and that even such a qualified devotee never accepts disciples on his own initiative. The version promoted by the swami, however, disputes this idea by suggesting: One should avoid thinking: “I am a first-class devotee, [therefore, for me] it is best to not accept any disciples [since accepting disciples is the work of second-class and third-class devotees].”

We should carefully note the placement of quotation marks in these two versions. The second version is misleading. It gives emphasis to the idea that thinking “It best not to accept disciples” is the thinking that should really be avoided, not necessarily thinking “I am a first-class devotee.” In other words, the swami’s version is structured in such a way as to suggest that it may be fine to think of oneself as a first-class devotee as long as he doesn’t use that as an excuse to avoid accepting disciples.

Such speculation, change and interpretation of Prabhupada’s original books creates a dangerous precedent. Devotees may come to believe that it is a good idea to analyze every book statement based on old archived manuscripts someone has dug up somewhere–manuscripts that have been transcribed from tapes long ago or recently by who knows who. Should we doubt statements we don’t like and go back to so-called “original” manuscripts, or even the writings of previous Acharyas, to determine what Prabhupada really meant? It seems odd to say, “The Caitanya-caritamrita Prabhupada gave us was a rushed job, so naturally it is full of serious mistakes, even though Prabhupada accepted it, read it and lectured from it many times. I am an advanced scholar, so let me offer the correct version.”

With all the book changes and speculation in Iskcon, the authority of Srila Prabhupada’s books has been undermined. If this continues, the authority of Prabhupada’s mission may become more and more obscured, as a floodgate of speculation is opened wide. We must all try to carefully maintain respect for the integrity and authority of Srila Prabhupada’s original books. Otherwise, the whole mission may eventually become severely adulterated or spoiled by misguided pundits and persons with false ambitions.

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